Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 22:00:09 -0700 (PDT) -------------- BEGIN bread-bakers.v097.n032 -------------- 001 - "Joan Mathew" - Canadian ingredients and a Canadian flour for whole wheat brea 011 - "Katherine L. Rodman" Subject: "r.r. cereal" Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 06:38:57 -0500 >I found an interesting sounding recipe in the Village Bakery Recipe >Bin at http://countrylife.net/bread/recipes/65.html, but I'm not quite >sure what one of the ingredients is. It calls for 1 cup of r.r. >cereal. The poster is from Canada. Is this a popular cereal in Canada? > I am making a wild guess here, but I've occasionally seen ingredient references to "Red River Cereal". Here's a description I found in another recipe: "*Red-River Cereal is a multi-grain cereal available in Canada (and elsewhere I am sure) that contains cracked wheat, cracked rye and whole flax seeds. It is high in fibre and very tasty." I'll bet you could easily substitute any high-fiber, bulk cereal (such as Grape Nuts or oatmeal) to have a nice end product. Remember, bread-making is not one of those things where you always have to be exact. A little variation here and there, such as ingredients like this, is nearly always OK and often yields a tasty result. Hope this is useful, Joan cmathew@airmail.net http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/8098/ Deja News: http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v097.n032.2 --------------- From: Barbara Stevenson Subject: Salt-Risen Bread Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 17:26:05 -0700 Hello everyone- I am new to the list and I just got a bread machine. I love salt-risen bread from the bakery and I wonder if there is a way to make it myself. Thanks for any help. Barbara --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v097.n032.3 --------------- From: bbriscoe@infolink.morris.mn.us (Bonnie Briscoe) Subject: Re: Canadian ingredient? Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 00:11:00 +0100 Geej wrote: >I found an interesting sounding recipe in the Village Bakery Recipe Bin at >http://countrylife.net/bread/recipes/65.html, but I'm not quite sure what >one >of the ingredients is. It calls for 1 cup of r.r. cereal. The poster >is from >Canada. Is this a popular cereal in Canada? I think this is probably Red River Cereal from Maple Leaf Mills Limited in Toronto, Canada. It contains cracked wheat, cracked rye, and whole flax seed. The texture is fine enough that it cooks in 5 minutes. You might find it in a food co-op or health food store if it's not available at your supermarket. Bonnie =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Bonnie Goodwill Briscoe e-mail:bbriscoe@infolink.morris.mn.us 500 East Third Street phone: 320-589-1258 Morris, Minnesota, USA 56267 fax: 320-589-1754 Language is all that separates us from the lower animals-- and from the bureaucrats. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v097.n032.4 --------------- From: cdryan@juno.com Subject: Dough Relaxer for Pizza Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 21:36:02 EST Hi everyone! Was wondering if anyone has any experience with *dough relaxer* added to pizza dough? It's on page 9 of the King Arthur Flour catalog. It is supposed to make rolling out a thin crust much easier. I've also seen a similar product called *dough easy* talked about in a pizza cookbook recently. I can never get my dough to roll out very thin---it fights me all the way. I've been using frozen pizza dough from my local Italian bakery, but would like to make my own. If you've used either product, I'd love to hear your comments. Thanks a million. Cindy cdryan@juno.com --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v097.n032.5 --------------- From: Darlene Jones Subject: r.r. cereal Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 23:07:39 -0700 > -------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v097.n031.15 --------------- > > From: jvega@sprynet.com > Subject: Canadian ingredient? > Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 04:37:15 -0700 This took me a minute; we haven't lived in Canada for 5 years and I forgot. It is called Red River Cereal. It is like a cracked grain cereal--looks to me like bird seed. My children loved it, I didn't. Anyway, hope that helps. I don't know what the equivalant would be here in the US, but I'm sure there is one. Darlene >Is this a popular cereal in Canada? Here's the entire recipe : > > 1 cup r.r. cereal > Please let me know if this cereal sounds familiar to anyone. ********* djones@moscow.com Darlene Jones University of Idaho Moscow, ID 83843 http://www.uidaho.edu/~jone9538 "Listen carefully to first criticisms made of your work. Note just what it is about your work that the critics don't like and cultivate it. That's the only part of your work that's individual and worth keeping." * Jean Cocteau * --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v097.n032.6 --------------- From: QuinnF@ni.net (Quinn Farnes) Subject: Sourdough Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 23:39:25 -0700 And another thing! My neighbor used to work in a local bakery. Not a high-end gourmet-type establishment, mind you, just an average small-town bakery where they sell donuts, bagels, cakes, cookies, rolls, and bread. We were chatting one day, and the conversation somehow turned to bread, and I asked him if he had ever done much with sourdough. I lamented that I had never been able to get a really sour sourdough using a home-made starter. He looked at me blankly, then asked me what a starter was. I replied that the traditional way sourdough is made is to keep a bit of dough around and natural yeast and bacteria will grow in it, producing various organic acids which impart a characteristic sour taste, and that periodically, a portion of the starter culture is mixed with the usual ingredients, eventually resulting in sourdough bread. That was evidently news to him. He said that in the bakery he used to work in, they made sourdough bread from ingredients which came in a big bag labeled something like "sourdough mix." He said they just dumped it in their Paul Bunyan-sized KitchenAid, dumped in some cold water, and fired it up, then went on to explain that big commercial mixers generate quite a lot of heat when kneading bread and you had to be careful not to over-knead the dough, or you'd kill the yeast. I suppose it doesn't really matter how the particular combination of metabolic byproducts which give sourdough bread its sour, cheezy taste get there, or whether they're actually produced by fermentation, or added by humans, but I wonder how much of what passes for sourdough bread from commercial bakeries is really just white bread to which a little fumaric acid has been added, and if that might explain why a really sour sourdough is difficult to produce the traditional way. Obviously there are many fine bakeries making sourdough bread the traditional way, and I don't mean to call anyone's integrity into question, but my conversation with my neighbor made me wonder how common the practice I described is. Anyone care to comment? I won't tell a soul! Quinn Laguna Niguel, Calif, USA --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v097.n032.7 --------------- From: music_class@earthlink.net (Katja) Subject: REQUEST: English Muffins from Eliz David's "English Bread..." Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 18:38:43 -0800 I have many recipes for English muffins and have made them successfully. I did, however, see Julia Child make them from Elizabeth David's "English Bread and Yeast Cookery" and the dough is more like a thick batter which is poured into rings .. almost like crumpets. It took me *forever* but I finally found the rings!!! (I know you can use tuna or pineapple cans .. but I *am* The Gadget Queen, yanno ;)). I am very curious about it and, if anyone has the recipe available to share, I would appreciate it very, very much. TIA, Katja --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v097.n032.8 --------------- From: Marilyn Gardner Subject: Smaller Machines?? Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:28:47 -0600 (MDT) I have a Breadman bread machine, 1 1/2 loaf size, and am very happy with it. I have a couple of relatives who live alone and am wondering if there are any machines that make smaller loafs. I wouldn't mind getting one for my family of 4 also. It's nice to have that wonderful smell of baking bread. Since breadmakers are so easy I wouldn't mind making a smaller amount every day or two. Thanks. Marilyn Gardner Capshaw Middle School Santa Fe, New Mexico --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v097.n032.9 --------------- From: CHEFLZ@aol.com Subject: FEEDBACK: PORT WINE, WALNUTS,& BLU CHEESE BREAD Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:49:30 -0400 (EDT) It's really, REALLY good, but no wine flavor, but a nice blu cheese,& walnut flavor, the bread is flavorful, but not overwhelming!!! --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v097.n032.10 --------------- From: jstout Subject: Canadian ingredients and a Canadian flour for whole wheat bread Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 02:54:38 -0600 (MDT) Hi! :-D!! That bread really does sound Canadian of origin, with maple syrup and Red River Cereal -- Yum!! Red River Cereal is a mix of three grains/seeds, wheat, flax, and rye. It's made here in Alberta and was 'invented' in the Red River Valley in Manitoba. I think you could probably add your own mixture of grains. The cereal grains are ground into tiny pieces about the size of cracked wheat, or smaller. I don't think the flax is ground. I should add that there's a flour sold here that can be used instead of white flour in bread recipes. We've used it for years without needing to add any white flour at all, though for bread machine use I like to add some gluten for an even better rise. It's called Robin Hood Whole Wheat Flour, and the loaves from it are nearly as light and large as those made from white flour only. Good stuff! Have fun with the bread! Janet :-D!! --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v097.n032.11 --------------- From: "Katherine L. Rodman" Subject: Sweet Sour Dough bread Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 16:00:30 -0400 I may be insane but a friend of mine makes the most wonderful sweet sourdough bread but she refuses to give me the recipe. Something about how it would be giving away an old family secret. Oh well. Does anyone have a bread recipe that sounds anything like this and if so do you think it could be converted to a bread machine recipe? I am not particulary fond of the really tangy sourdough bread but her bread has a warm almost buttery flavor to it. Help!!! Toodles, Kat ****************************************************************************** * Katherine L. Rodman Email: afn25136@afn.org * * Graduate Costume Designer Voice: (352) 336-0687 * * Department of Theatre * * 4th Floor / McCarty C * * University of Florida Well it's perfectly clear * * between the TV and beer * * I won't get so much as a kiss * * As I head for the door * * I turn around to be sure * * Did I shave my legs for this? * * Deana Carter * ****************************************************************************** --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v097.n032.12 --------------- From: Reggie Dwork Subject: Sage Cornmeal Bread Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:05:39 -0700 I wanted to use up some of the fresh sage I have growing on my windowsill... so I came up with this....it is a really nice loaf of bread. Hope you enjoy it if you try it. Reggie * Exported from MasterCook * Sage Cornmeal Bread Recipe By : Reggie Dwork Serving Size : 14 Preparation Time :0:00 Categories : Bread Machine Bread/Muffins/Rolls Low Fat Bread-Bakers Mailing List Eat-Lf Mailing List Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method -------- ------------ -------------------------------- 1 1/2 Lb Loaf: 1 1/2 Tsp Active Dry Yeast 2 C Bread Flour -- (10.6 Oz) 1/2 C Yellow Cornmeal 1 Tbsp Fresh Sage -- Minced Fine 1/2 Tsp Salt 2 Tbsp Honey 2 Tsp Butter 1 C Water Put all the ingredients into the baking pan and set for light crust and push start. The loaf came out very light...and had a great taste. Entered into MasterCook and created for you by Reggie Dwork - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - NOTES : Cal 104 Fat 1g Carb 20.7g Fib 1g Pro 2.9g Sod 83mg CFF 8.4% --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v097.n032.13 --------------- From: David Begleiter Subject: Kitchenaid for bread Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 14:21:17 +0300 Just got Kichenaid as Passover's present. The booklet is rather poor. So I need help and hints for the optimal use for whoole and white wheat flour. Thanks and Chag-Sameach! David --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v097.n032.14 --------------- From: "Bill Hatcher" Subject: Sourdough Information Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 10:28:47 -0400 The following have some ~great~ information and a plethora of sourdough recipes: - - - Sourdough FAQs and great links: http://mindlink.net/darrell_greenwood/sourdoughfaqs.html - - - Tons of recipes, FAqs, etc.: http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/rural/food/sourdough/faqs/Sourdough-Recipes.F AQ.SRCv2.01.Nov1993 - - - Regards. Bill Hatcher bhatcher@gc.net Southampton County, Virginia, USA --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v097.n032.15 --------------- From: Mark and Jenny Wesner Subject: soy flour vs. eggs Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:16:48 -0500 I've read before in my Tightwad Gazette (before they stopped publishing) that using soy flour and water can substitute for eggs in a recipe. Has anyone tried this in terms of increasing the volume of their bread in an ABM? Just curious. Thanks! Jenny --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v097.n032.16 --------------- From: mjm@wru.org (Michael Masterson) Subject: Re: KitchenAid Mixers for Bread Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:30:27 -0500 (CDT) >I found that for mixing and kneading bread, my Kitchen Aid mixer (with >dough hook) had three major drawbacks, and finally opted for a new mixer. >I encountered these problems with the Kitchen Aid: (1) the simple j-shaped >dough hook tends to push the dough out to the sides of the bowl; you must >stop the mixer often to scrape down the sides by hand. (2) The bowl lacks >a secure lid, and the dough ball, once it finally forms, climbs the beater >mechanism and escapes into the kitchen. (3) Motor size limits the mixer >to just a few cups of flour -- six cups, says the Kitchen Aid literature, >but I have found that heavy 6-cup batches overload and overheat the motor. Another option that seems to be oft overlooked is the Rival stand mixers made in the UK by Kenwood. They're cheaper than the KA models, and they perform better, we purchased one of the 'small' ones for $179 (on sale, true... regularly $220 or so) and, except for it being a bit loud, couldn't be happier with it. The 'small' model has a five quart bowl, and 600 watts of power. It's got low, medium and high speed accessory connections, and the accessories are cheaper and better made than the KA stuff. They recommend not using more than 5 cups of shortcrust or pie pastry dough, or 10.5 cups of yeast dough. The bowl covers seal, nothing can splash out. The main beater is doubly contoured in an interesting 'twist' shape that does a very good job of mixing, it's made out of metal. The bowl's have a raised center so that the beater doesn't leave a little spot in the bottom center of the bowl that's not hit by the blade. The dough hook is a strange twisted J, or maybe L shape, that sort of has a blade on the bottom to 'cut through' the dough, it has a shield on the top that prevents the dough from getting past it, but we've never seen the dough even try to climb, thanks to the shape of the hook. it's also made of metal. The whisk is very sturdy and heavy, you can do a lot more than whip cream with it (Grins). Accessories are VERY sturdy, the meat grinder is metal, has a progressive screw on it, they've thoughtfully made the cutting blade double sided so you can get twice as much use out of it. we recently turned three pounds of roast into hamburger in just a few minutes, and there was never the least bit of laboring from the unit. The pasta extruder is a completely seperate unit that's optimized for pasta, and does a great job of it. (throw the flour in the bowl, mix it, pull it out, dump balls of it into the pasta extruder and poof, you've got spagetti, macaroni, etc.) There's a whole host of accessories including things like citrus juicer, vegetable juicer, coffee mill, grain mill, potato pealer (don't know how this one works (Grins)), blender, etc etc. Bowls are available in stainless or plastic, as well as one with a D shaped opening. If this isn't enough power, they've got a 7 qt model with 650watts of power for money compairable to the high end kitchen aids... maybe less. -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Michael Masterson mjm@wru.org --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v097.n032.17 --------------- From: Reggie Dwork Subject: Pear Bread Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:03:55 -0700 This was very good. It has a wonderful subtle flavor from the pears. Reggie * Exported from MasterCook * Pear Bread Recipe By : The Bread Machine Book, Marjie Lambert Serving Size : 8 Preparation Time :0:00 Categories : Bread Machine Bread/Muffins/Rolls Low Fat Bread-Bakers Mailing List Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method -------- ------------ -------------------------------- 1 Lb Loaf: -- (1 1/2 Lb Loaf): 1 1/2 Tsp Yeast -- (2 1/4 Tsp) 2 C Bread Flour -- (3 C) 1/2 Tsp Nutmeg -- (3/4 Tsp) 1/2 Tsp Ground Ginger -- (3/4 Tsp) 1/2 Tsp Salt -- (3/4 Tsp) 2 Tbsp Butter -- (3 T) 2 Tsp Honey -- (1 T) 3 Tbsp Pear Liquid -- Or Water, (4-5T) 1/2 C Pear Puree -- (3/4 C) This is based on a bread made in the French countryside amid pear orchards. It has a delicate, sweet flavor of pears. It is a nice tea or breakfast bread, or can be used in mildly flavored sandwiches such as cream cheese and cucumber. Make the pear puree by peeling and coring 3 pears for the smaller recipe, 4 or 5 for the larger one. Cut each pear in several pieces and put in a small saucepan with 1 or 2 T water. Start cooking over very low heat. The pears will quickly start releasing their own juices, and nor more water will be needed. Increase to medium heat. Cook the pears until they are very soft, about 10 min. Then drain off as much liquid as you can, saving the liquid. Put the pears in a blend3er or food processor and puree. Measure out the required amount of puree. Put it and all other ingredients except pear liquid in bread pan in order suggested by your bread machine instructions. The amount of liquid needed for the bread will depend on the liquid in the puree, so you'll need to watch the dough for the first few minutes, adding pear liquid (or plain water) until it reaches the proper consistency - neighter stiff nor too soft. Set for white bread, medium crust. Press Start. Once you have added the liquid, the bread does not need any further attention until it is baked. This was really good!! We enjoyed the very subtle flavor of the pears. Entered into MasterCook and tested for you by Reggie & Jeff Dwork - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - NOTES : Cal 166.6 Fat 3.5g Carb 29.1g Fib 1.3g Pro 4.5g Sod 164mg CFF 19.2% Nutr. Assoc. : 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 4415 4410 Recipe By : The Bread Machine Book, Marjie Lambert Serving Size : 8 Preparation Time :0:00 Categories : Bread Machine Bread/Muffins/Rolls Low Fat Bread-Bakers Mailing List Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method -------- ------------ -------------------------------- 1 Lb Loaf: -- (1 1/2 Lb Loaf): 1 1/2 Tsp Yeast -- (2 1/4 Tsp) 2 C Bread Flour -- (3 C) 1/2 Tsp Nutmeg -- (3/4 Tsp) 1/2 Tsp Ground Ginger -- (3/4 Tsp) 1/2 Tsp Salt -- (3/4 Tsp) 2 Tbsp Butter -- (3 T) 2 Tsp Honey -- (1 T) 3 Tbsp Pear Liquid -- Or Water, (4-5T) 1/2 C Pear Puree -- (3/4 C) This is based on a bread made in the French countryside amid pear orchards. It has a delicate, sweet flavor of pears. It is a nice tea or breakfast bread, or can be used in mildly flavored sandwiches such as cream cheese and cucumber. Make the pear puree by peeling and coring 3 pears for the smaller recipe, 4 or 5 for the larger one. Cut each pear in several pieces and put in a small saucepan with 1 or 2 T water. Start cooking over very low heat. The pears will quickly start releasing their own juices, and nor more water will be needed. Increase to medium heat. Cook the pears until they are very soft, about 10 min. Then drain off as much liquid as you can, saving the liquid. Put the pears in a blend3er or food processor and puree. Measure out the required amount of puree. Put it and all other ingredients except pear liquid in bread pan in order suggested by your bread machine instructions. The amount of liquid needed for the bread will depend on the liquid in the puree, so you'll need to watch the dough for the first few minutes, adding pear liquid (or plain water) until it reaches the proper consistency - neither stiff nor too soft. Set for white bread, medium crust. Press Start. Once you have added the liquid, the bread does not need any further attention until it is baked. This was really good!! We enjoyed the very subtle flavor of the pears. Entered into MasterCook and tested for you by Reggie & Jeff Dwork - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - NOTES : Cal 166.6 Fat 3.5g Carb 29.1g Fib 1.3g Pro 4.5g Sod 164mg CFF 19.2% Nutr. Assoc. : 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 4415 4410 --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v097.n032.18 --------------- From: "Ellen C." Subject: R.R. Cereal Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:49:32 -0400 * It calls for 1 cup of r.r. cereal. The poster is from Canada. Hi Geef! I just read something about this the other day, and I am fairly sure that "R.R. cereal" refers to the "Red River Cereal" sold in Canada. According to the poster, Red River Cereal contains equal amounts of cracked wheat, cracked rye, and flax seeds. That's it. You can purchase each of these ingredients in a HFS, and you can either purchase the grains already cracked, or crack the whole grains at home, yourself. Here are the poster's directions for cooking the cereal: "When you make it, it's about 1/3 c. per person, with a pinch of salt and 1 c. of water. Put them all in a pot, bring to a boil, stir every couple of minutes, and let it simmer for 5 minutes until thick." I hope this helps. -- Ellen C. ellen@brakes.elekta.com --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v097.n032.19 --------------- From: pericles@serix.com Subject: rr cereal Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 08:50:04 +0000 >I found an interesting sounding recipe in the Village Bakery Recipe Bin at >http://countrylife.net/bread/recipes/65.html, but I'm not quite sure what one of >the ingredients is. It calls for 1 cup of r.r. cereal. The poster is from >Canada. Is this a popular cereal in Canada? Here's the entire recipe : I believe that rr cereal would be Red River Cereal. I've always hated the stuff so I can't tell you whats in it, lots of gnarly bits. You cook it the way you do breakfast oatmeal. If this isn't enough detail let me know and I'll check it out next time I'm at the supermarket. Regards Donna --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v097.n032.20 --------------- From: QuinnF@ni.net (Quinn Farnes) Subject: Lessons Learned Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 23:39:21 -0700 Hi, All! I subscribed to this list a few weeks ago after just about giving up on my bread machine. I once actually was so upset at my inability to achieve acceptable results, I uncerimoniously tossed my machine into the trash, but then thought better of it and fished it out. My problem was that I simply couldn't get anything except white bread to rise and bake without collapsing. And I don't even like white bread. Notice I say "was." If you're producing hockey-puck bread like I was, read on! A couple of years ago, I received a Goldstar 1.5-lb breadmaker as a Father's Day gift from my wife. She denies it, but I think she thought her gift would cause me to confine my breadmaking activities to the appx. 1 square foot the machine takes up on the kitchen counter. She was wrong. Now it's pizza, calzones, bagels, cinnamon rolls, etc., etc., and so on and so forth. But I digress... After zipping (then wolfing) through my first thirty pounds or so of flour, which I used playing with sourdough and pumpernickel recipes, suddenly I was unable to keep the rising dough from collapsing. Something had changed. New yeast, reducing liquid, warming the ingredients, decreasing and/or increasing yeast and sugar were of little benefit. At best, I could produce a loaf that would rise to just shy of the lip of the pan. I like heavy, dark breads, but that wouldn't do. White bread was the only thing that I could get right, and though that's fine with my 3-year-old son who actually likes Wonder Bread (yeech!), it wasn't all right with me. I resigned myself to making white bread for my son's requisite daily PB+J sandwiches. About that time, I was referred to the web page containing the archives of this list. I read several of them and gathered that I must have been doing something wrong. All those folks out there were successfully using their machines, to the disgust (then the dismay, when the responses came back) of the occasional by-hand-only-bigot impetuous enough to de-lurk. I read and learned a lot! My mom seemed to fared better than I with her 5-year-old Zoji, and a friend, who has the same machine I have, said he had no problem with falling loaves, so I suspected my machine was at fault. I absconded with Mom's Zoji after work one day, and mixed up two identical batches of pumpernickel,* and put one in Mom's Zoji, and the other in my Goldstar. A few hours later I found myself wondering what to do with two virtually identical 6" high cratered loaves (Duck-food? No, that would have sunk them). I concluded it wasn't my machine's fault, but what could it be? I found that many of the recipes in the book that the Zoji-folk provide specify resetting the machine after the first rise, particularly with heavy low-gluten flours such as WW and rye. I mixed up another batch of pumpernickel, and added two level tablespoons of wheat gluten just for grins. After the first rise (white bread setting), I reset the machine, waited 20 minutes, then restarted it. I noticed that the dough ball had developed the texture of a big marshmallow. Very resilient. The result was just what I was looking for. The top of the loaf just grazed the lid, and the texture was consistent from the bottom to the top of the loaf. More important, the flavor was significantly more bread-like; sweet and yeasty -- you could smell the alcohol the yeast produced while the bread had risen. My earlier efforts had been notable for their lack of flavor. I then tried the same recipe in my Goldstar, but was faced with a decision. My machine has a whole wheat setting with three rises of 20, 15, and 40 minutes, while the white bread setting has three rises of 12, 25, and 60 minutes. The Zoji white bread cycle has only two, though longer, rises and has no WW cycle. Since the final rise was 50 percent longer on the white bread setting, I decided to give it a try. "Push the button, Max!" After the first rise, I reset the machine, let it sit for 20 minutes, then restarted it. A few hours later, I was rewarded with a perfect loaf. In the weeks since my initial success, I've followed the same procedure with recipes containing as much as 50% whole wheat or rye flour, or combinations thereof, with similar results. I have abandoned the use of the whole-wheat setting, and as a matter of course, add 1 tbsp. gluten for each cup of non-white flour in the recipe. I know from earlier experiments that the additional gluten alone is not sufficient to make the loaf rise and stay that way while baking. The extra kneed seems to be important to developing resilience and enhancing flavor. Besides helping the dough to resist gravity (I wonder how bread would bake in a weightless environment?), the added gluten seems to make it a little more chewy. I hope that if anyone has had similar problems getting heavy breads to rise, maybe they can benefit from my experience. After almost giving up and going back to store-bought bread, I'm glad I perservered. Thank you all for sharing your experiences so freely. Sorry for being so long-winded. Speaking of wind, while checking on the correct spelling of pumpernickel, a word I've never before had occasion to write, I found the following factoid in the American Heritage Dictionary: Pumpernickel (n.) A dark, sourish bread made from whole, coarsely ground rye. [German, probably from dialectal, term of abuse : obsolete Pumper, breaking wind (from dialectal pumpern, to break wind, from Middle High German, to knock, frequentative of pumpen, of imitative origin) + German Nickel, goblin; see NICKEL.] So . . . the word _pumpernickel_ means what. . . a flatulent goblin??? There's gotta be a story behind the origin of that word! Anybody know it? Cheers! Quinn Laguna Niguel, Calif. USA * German, Donna. The Bread Machine Cookbook III. Page 52 (substituting equivalent measure of oat bran for the black bean flakes). --------------- END bread-bakers.v097.n032 --------------- Copyright (c) 1996-2000 Regina Dwork and Jeffrey Dwork All Rights Reserved