Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 18:39:49 -0700 (PDT) -------------- BEGIN bread-bakers.v097.n047 -------------- 001 - SophieAZ@aol.com - Too dry? 002 - sue@interport.net (Curly - Re: German bread 003 - Pete - Bread Preservatives 004 - qoe@sna.com - Bread Dough Enhancer - Tried it, Liked it. 005 - "Caron Rose"I'm generally not a big contributor to this list but I have several >questions about German breads. I just returned from there, and I cannot >get over how fresh the breads stay. They would stay out overnight, not >face down on a cutting board, and 2 days later it felt like and tasted >like it was fresh from the bakery. This happened to all breads that I >tried. They were from a bakery and the people swore to me that there >were no preservatives. How is this possible? What are they doing? > >Thanks alot for any info on this "miracle bread" > >Sue >sb328@columbia.edu I just got back from Germany too, and ate my share of bread. I have to say that didn't strike me at the time as unusual, but you're right, I don't remember having stale bread either (except baugettes). I don't know the answer for sure, but I did learn something while in the kitchen of the Goethehaus in Frankfurt. I was by myself but a small tour group came in and the guide described the kitchen a bit. She pointed to a large covered pot and asked anyone in the group if they could guess what it was for. Turns out it was a bread keeper and the guide explained that German breads are sourdough breads. Now, the way I heard it was that they let the finished bread age in the pot a few days before eating it, but on second thought maybe I misheard it and she was talking about the culture. However, on third thought, the pot was metal (copper-y color) which I wouldn't think would be good for a yeast culture, an acidic one at that. OK, so that wasn't helpful ;> Sue(tm) Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself! --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v097.n047.3 --------------- From: Pete Subject: Bread Preservatives Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 22:39:27 >Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 22:34:55 >To: bread-bakers-errors@lists.best.com >From: Pete >Subject: Bread Preservatives > >I have been using a bread machine for quite awhile. I always end up freezing my loaf as we just dont eat enough bread before it goes stale. Freezing the bread loses some of the flavor. Anyway, I was hoping to find some type of additive just to retard spoilage. I believe bread companies use calcium proprionate. However, is there something available in a grocery store or that I could order. What amounts, etc.? I hate adding preservatives, but they do have their place. > >Peter --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v097.n047.4 --------------- From: qoe@sna.com Subject: Bread Dough Enhancer - Tried it, Liked it. Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 22:40:49 -0700 (PDT) >Hi everyone, >I was thumbing thru the Bakers Catalog when I came across Bread Dough >Enhancer. I had a couple questions re: this stuff. > >Has anyone used it? And how do u like it? > >Has anyone used it for bread maker bread and gotten good/bad results? > >Is it worth $9.95 for 10 oz?? > >thx! >debbie >piggie@worldnet.att.net I bought some from the King Arthur Catalog ($8.95 for 3/4 lb.). I got it mainly for pizza crust. I have a 5 and 2 year old and they love to make their own pizza. Only problem mommy is constantly fighting the dough to get a thin enough crust and I can never get it to the thin crust stage. So, I bought the Dough Relaxer and it worked beautifully! The dough rolled out thin and stayed there! I do the pizza dough recipe in my bread maker on the dough setting (duh sorry) and it is working great. I haven't tried it on anything else though. Thinking about it just haven't tried it yet. Lynne Miles qoe@sna.com http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Meadows/3986/ Orangevale, CA --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v097.n047.5 --------------- From: "Caron Rose" Subject: Re: Bread Dough Enhancer Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 07:05:05 -0400 >From: Debbie Hrabinski >Subject: Bread Dough Enhancer >Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 22:47:45 -0400 >Hi everyone, >I was thumbing thru the Bakers Catalog when I came across >Bread Dough Enhancer. I had a couple questions re: this stuff. >Has anyone used it? And how do u like it? I don't have their regulare bread enhancer, but I have their italian bread improver, and I love it. Since I began using it about 6 months ago, my italian bread turns out much better. The inside is slightly denser, with a chewier texture, and the crust is not thick and tough anymore. It's thinner and has a good crunch/crisp to it. Oh yes, and it stays fresh a good two or three days longer! I can't remember where I got the recipe, but it follows. I use Fleischmans (sp?)Instant yeast, which I get by the 1 lb bulk pack at BJ's. You could try regular, but I always get good consistent results from the instant. Breadmaker Italian Bread 1 1/4 C Water 1 1/2 - 2 t Salt ( I use the 1 1/2, but the orig. recipe used 2) 2 T Extra Virgin Olive Oil 3 1/4 C King Arthur Bread Machine Flour 1/4 C King Arthur Italian Bread Improver 2 t Instant Yeast Place ingredients in your breadmaker according to manufacturer's suggestions. Select the dough cycle. When finished, place the dough on lightly floured board. Punch down. Flatten out slightly, and with wet hands, pat water on the top of the dough. Dry your hands, and roll the dough in a jelly roll fashion. Place the dough on a floured peel, or directly onto a heavy, dark, baking sheet. Let rise 35-40 mins. Preheat oven to 350. Bake at 350 for about 20 mins. I have a stone, so after 20 mins, I remove bread from the pan, and place it on the stone for about 5 mins, to crisp the bottom. I've also used this recipe in the Kitchenaid. It turned out pretty close to the same, but required more attention than the breadmaker. Caron --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v097.n047.6 --------------- From: neil.flatter@juno.com (Neil L Flatter) Subject: Re: grain mills Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 20:55:08 -0500 bbriscoe@infolink.morris.mn.us (Bonnie Briscoe) asks about grain mills. What kind is it, where did you buy it, how long have you used it, and what do you like or dislike about it? I have used two different grain mills. Both were manually operated, but are easily modified. The first, while technically not a grain mill, was made by Corona in Mexico. The company also makes flour mills, and this design is more like a flour mill than a grain mill with an adjustable plate rubbing the grain against a fixed plate. It has a hopper that hold just over a pound of grain. It does not have a good method for delivering the product into a receiving container so you will end up with grain flour all over you, the area you use it, etc. My father now has the mill and loves it for making feed for his earthworms. The handle is held on by a bolt which has a wide head which allows tightening by hand. The bolt is easily exchanged for one with a hex shaped head. The replacement can then by turned with an electric drill and a nut driver. The cost of the mill is about $35. As a replacement, I purchased a Glatt grain mill on sale for $60. It has a hopper that easily holds 3 pounds of grain, but it could hold 4 if poured in carefully. It is a roller mill with harden steel rollers about 2 foot long. The entire mill is designed to fit over a 5 gallon bucket. This is the mill the stores use when I purchase grain and they crush it for me. It is motorized by the attachment of a belt pulley and motor. It will run trough over a pound in a minute when turned at 100 turns a minute. There is much less flour generated with this method so clean up is not a problem. I have also used a plate mill with grains where a metal plate presses grain up against a roller to break open the grain. I don't have a price or many details, but I could look them up if need be. Neil Flatter Neil.Flatter@Juno.com Terre Haute, Indiana USA Ph 812-235-2682 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Marriage is 90% giving. The trick to marriage is knowing when to take your 10%. --Grandpa Inman --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v097.n047.7 --------------- From: "Neil Dunn" Subject: MANIA: Bread Machine Heaven Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 21:13:16 +1000 After many years of using my DAK R2D2 & having mixed results, following all recipes and manufacturer's instructions faithfully & because of the inconsistencies, I gave up my favorite past-time of making bread. I reconsidered after a four year absence and bought an ABM, on sale. To date, I have not had an inferior loaf. Their loading of the ingredients is completely opposite of the DAK & I have had beautiful, perfect looking and even better tasting loafs everytime. I am almost ot the point of making a loaf every other day and I am single. This machine looks like my old R2D2, but it works fantastic. PERFECTION every-time. I am interested in comments from everyone having an ABM or having similar problems with the DAK R2D2. I am a loyal type consumer, if I get a productr which does me right i stick with it, but when I get a product which scrrews me over, such as CHRYSLER automobiles, I want the world to know & thank GOD for the INTERNET to give us a phenominal audience.... BREAD POWER By the way, I broke out the old DAK, dusted it off and followed their (DAK's recipes and instructions), after 3 loafs, only one is what I expected, I loaded the ingredients in the DAK following the ABM instructions and guess what, 3 loafs later in the DAK and perfection every-time. DAK owners do not give up, write to ABM and get a copy of their instruction manual...........Perhaps even a copy of their free video........... Regards, Neil --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v097.n047.8 --------------- From: bredlady@softdisk.com (G Nuttall) Subject: German breads Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 08:11:00 +0100 From: Sue B Subject: German Breads They would stay out overnight, not face down on a cutting board, and 2 days later it felt like and tasted like it was fresh from the bakery. This happened to all breads that I tried. They were from a bakery and the people swore to me that there were no preservatives. How is this possible? What are they doing? Thanks alot for any info on this "miracle bread" SUE: The secret answer to this "miracle bread" is using the centuries old technique of sourdough. It is proven that using a sourdough technique will add "shelf life" to your bread. In Europe they take, on average, 6-7 hours just to get the dough ready to go in the oven ( Mixing, 1st rising, weighing/preshaping, resting, shaping, retarding, proofing). Some of those bakers have sourdough starters that they've maintained for hundreds of years. Because they use the sourdough to rise the bread, there are no preservatives in the bread ( just like their beer too- no preservatives that is!) Please note, that sourdough techniques do not have to make the bread sour like "San Francisco Sourdough" bread which is acidic and sour tasting. The Germans also use a lot of rye flour and spelt flour, unlike us here in the US who dine on mostly white ( low nutritional ) breads. They use mostly whole grains for their breads. Sometimes the bread are dense in texture, but I agree with you, They are some of the best breads I've eaten throughout my travels. hope this helps g --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v097.n047.9 --------------- From: bredlady@softdisk.com (G Nuttall) Subject: grain mills Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 08:28:42 +0100 From: bbriscoe@infolink.morris.mn.us (Bonnie Briscoe) Subject: grain mills I am looking for information about electric grain mills. If you use one, what kind is it, where did you buy it, how long have you used it, and what do you like or dislike about it? Are you happy with the service provided by the merchant you bought it from? Would you buy the same kind of grain mill again? Bonnie: Ive had the opportunity to use several types of grain mills throughout my bread baking life. One important thing to look for is how hot does the mill make the flour when milling. Heat destroys the nutritional value of the flour if it gets too hot. Once I saw a demonstration for the " Whisper Mill", and although it does mill pretty well, the flour was really hot when it came out into the receptacle. I believe that the added insulation to "keep the noise down" has cause it to heat up too much. Without a doubt, the best way to mill any grain for flour is to use a slow, stonegrinding mill. Check around locally to see if anyone in your area does stoneground milling. You'd be surprised at who does. if that's not an option, you need to know what criteria you look for in a mill. Most small mills range from around $300 then the price goes up. How much flour do you want ground in one hour, is another consideration. if you are using it for a few loaves, then most any mill should work - Stone mills are available for around $300-400. I recently received material from a company called Lee in Wisconsin. They have a carberundum ( going off memory here!) stone mill. The best stone mills can be read about on Alan Scott's web page at http://pomo.nbn.com/home/ovncraft. He has been using stoneground mills for about 20 years now, and he is a great source of knowledge about all types of mills. I've used the Skiold stone mill he describes there. it is great, but pricy for a home baker. The Diamant stone mill is an excellent buy for $425! Also, at that page lists the Jansen mill comapny out of North Carolina. i have not used their mills, but I know Mr jansen and I wouldn't hesitate to purchase their product based on his knowledge and craftmanship (and quality standard!) hope this helps g --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v097.n047.10 --------------- From: Karen Fenlason Subject: Re: German bread Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:02:36 -0400 Sue, There are *many* kinds of bread in Germany. Germans are kind of funny about their bread, it is a staple food and therefore extremely important. It generally falls into two categories, fine and black. Fine bread is extremely dense with a small crumb and few or no bubbles and holes. It has a nice chewy crust. Black bread is usually an extremely dense sourdough rye with *whole* grains. My husband calls it brick bread. Fine bread keeps well because the crust doesn't let any air get to the inside of the loaf. If the air is moist enough, the cut part of the loaf doesn't dry out too much. Black bread is so dense that the only way it will become inedible is if it gets moldy. I like it best slightly desiccated. My family in Germany covers their loaves with plastic bags though. I don't think the bakers are allowed to put preservatives in their breads. Kind of like the beer (another staple) can only have water barley hops and yeast. The good news for me is grocery stores here (Boston area) are starting to carry black bread. I'm glad you hit the bakeries. Hope you tried the pastries too... Karen Fenlason iddkcf@iddis.com --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v097.n047.11 --------------- From: Sally Eisenberg Subject: Bean Bread Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 11:25:03 -0700 Hi All, Judi Burley was looking for a bean bread recipe from Baking with Julia in the Bread Bakers #041. Lora Brody made this bread called Salsa Quitza. I put the complete recipe here. Lora said that you could use vegetarian refried beans, nonfat or regular. I have been wanting to make this ever since I saw the show and some how miss placed the recipe. Thanks Judi for getting me to look for it. I plan to make it this week. Sally E. * Exported from MasterCook * Salsa Quitza Recipe By : Lora Brody Serving Size : 1 Preparation Time :0:00 Categories : Breads Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method -------- ------------ -------------------------------- BREAD 1 Tablespoon yeast 1/2 cup cornmeal 3 Tablespoons nonfat dry milk 2 teaspoons chili powder 1 1/2 teaspoons salt 2 cups white flour 1 cup nonfat refried beans 1 Tablespoon red chili honey 1/4 cup oil chili mild 1 egg 1 cup water FILLING 12 oz cream cheese -- softened 2 cups salsa chunky in jar -- drained 1 cup cheddar cheese or Monterey Jack -- shredded Put bread ingredients in bread machine on dough cycle. When cycle is done remove dough from machine and roll out and place in a 10-inch spring form pan, press dough up the sides of form pan. Spread cream cheese over the bread, then spread the salsa on top of the cream cheese, then top with the shredded cheese. Set aside and let double in size 20-40 minutes. Bake in preheated oven 475 degrees F. for 20-25 minutes. Remove side of spring form pan and serve immediately. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v097.n047.12 --------------- From: Gerry McMahon Subject: life expectancy / mail order bulk yeast Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 16:19:49 -0400 >From: "Rossana S. Tarantini" > >>Does anyone have any idea of the life expectancy of a bread machine? We >>use ours every day, usually baking two loaves daily. > Then Chris Olmstead replies: > >My Oster manual says it has a 2 year warrantee. I am using mine about once >a day. From reading here and from books at the library it looks to me like >2 years is a _minimum_ lifespan. I would start to get nervous around 3 >years, and shop to replace it in the 4th year even if it is still running. >I get the idea I'm very conservative. > Hi all, I bought the R2D2 unit from Wellbilt in 1991 for my then SO, it is still in service. I currently own the Zoji, it's two years old now and going strong. If I were to buy new stuff just cause I was out of warranty I'd never get to break anything in. You're probably better off using it as regularly as you do rather than being an occassional baker. > > Then Karen Wheless asks: >> I'm having a hard time finding yeast here. The only place that sells yeast >> in bulk is Costco, and I'm not sure it's worth the membership fee just for >> yeast! But the prices at the grocery stores are outrageous. Is there any >> place where you can order yeast by mail? Is it both inexpensive and >> reliable? I only bake two or three loaves a week, so I don't need huge >> amounts. Also, how long does yeast last if you store it in the freezer? >> O.k. No, yeast alone wouldn't cover the membership fee ... but I was surprised how quickly I recouped my $25 fee on things that I use regularly. Two mail order sources would be King Arthur Flour, and Irwin Franzel who is a list member who sells SAF yeast ... I assumed he would reply to your initial e-mail so I didn't. I've bought yeast from King Arthur and from Sam's Club. I keep it in the freezer all the time. My King Arthur bag lasted from August '95 through December '96. The last loaf rose as nicely as the first. When I am assembling my ingredients I just pull the yeast out of the freezer and let it warm up a bit. I keep it in a T-ware container. The Sam's yeast is Fleishmann's and comes two bags to a pack so I split it with a friend. So find a Costco member and have them buy the yeast for you :) promise them a loaf of bread. Peace, Gerry --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v097.n047.13 --------------- From: Peter Hafid Subject: Garllic bread Date: Sun, 27 Jan 1980 10:40:51 +0100 Would anybody please tell mee how to make garllic bread. Thanks Peter --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v097.n047.14 --------------- From: "Bobbi Terkowitz" Subject: Olive Braid Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:49:46 -0400 I dug out my recipe for my family's favorite bread, and here it is. The olive pestos are also called olivada (black) and oliverde (green), and I buy them at a local deli (brand name San Remo). Dean & Deluca also carries them, and I'm pretty sure they do mail order (over the Internet even, I believe). You can also make the pestos yourself; I have a recipe that says 2 cups of olives to 1/4 cup olive oil; 1 tsp thyme in the black pesto and 1/2 tsp black pepper in the green. (You can also throw in anchovies and capers if you want.) Process to a smooth paste. The bread recipe comes from King Arthur's cookbook, and they in turn got it from Robin Voight, who runs a baking business in Connecticut called Kochen Coq, Inc. The recipe makes four good-sized loaves, or you can make three really big ones, or two really, really big...you get the idea. Enjoy! Ligurian Olive Braid Green Olive Pesto Dough 1 cup warm water 3 3/4 cups all-purpose flour 1 TBSP yeast 2 TBSP extra virgin olive oil 1/2 cup green olive pesto 1 tsp salt Pour the warm water into a bowl. Stir in 1 cup flour and the yeast. Let sit until the yeast has dissolved and the whole mixture has expanded. Stir in the olive oil, pesto, and salt. Add the balance of the flour gradually. Knead three to four minutes, until the dough becomes cohesive. Give the dough a rest while you clean out and grease your bowl. When you return to the dough it will be more pliable and "together." Continue kneading until it is soft, smooth, and elastic. Put the dough in a lightly greased bowl, turning it over to grease the top. Cover and set aside to double in bulk. Black Olive Pesto Dough Make this second dough just as you did the first but use black olive pesto rather than the green. Put aside to rise while you make the third dough. Olive Oil Dough 1 1/4 cups warm water 4 cups all-purpose flour 1 TBSP yeast 1 TBSP butter 1/4 cup extra virgin olive oil 1 tsp salt Make as above, adding the butter, olive oil, and salt to the proofed water, flour, and yeast. You may have to knock down the first two doughs and let them begin to rise a second time to give the third dough enough time for a complete rise. [Or, let the first two doughs rise in the refrigerator until the third dough is ready to begin its rise, then take the first two out to warm as the third dough rises.] After all the doughs have doubled at least once, divide each into four equal sized pieces. Roll each into a rope about 15 inches long. Take three strands of dough, one of each color [careful—the green and olive oil doughs look a lot alike!], and braid. Repeat with other strands until you have 4 loaves. Place on a lightly greased baking sheet with at least 3 inches between the loaves for expansion. Cover with a damp towel and let them rise for 1 to 1 1/2 hours. Fifteen minutes before baking, preheat the oven to 425F. Beat one egg white with 1 tsp water to make a wash, and brush over the tops of the loaves. Sprinkle braids with kosher salt. Bake for 15 minutes at 425F. Turn the oven down to 375F and bake for a further 20 to 25 minutes. (If you're baking larger loaves, after 20 minutes at 375F, turn the heat down once more to 350F and bake a further 10 to 15 minutes. The braids are done when they are golden brown and sound hollow when thumped on the bottom. Cool on a rack. When they are thoroughly cool, seal any loaves you want to freeze in airtight plastic bags. I also promised Reggie this next recipe, since I made him drool...(it's my FORMER favorite bread) The recipe comes from The Italian Baker by Carol Field. Rosemary Bread 1 TBSP yeast 1 cup warm water 1 cup milk, room temperature 1/3 cup less 1 TBSP olive oil 4 TBSP fresh rosemary or 2 TBSP dried 1 TBSP plus 1 tsp salt About 6 3/4 cups all-purpose flour 1 to 1 1/2 tsp coarse sea salt, kosher salt, or pretzel salt Stir the yeast into the water; let stand until creamy, about 10 minutes. Stir in the milk and oil. Combine the rosemary, salt, and flour and add to the yeast mixture. Knead until velvety, elastic, and smooth—8-10 minutes by hand. It should be somewhat moist and blistered. Place the dough in a oiled bowl, cover tightly with plastic wrap, and let rise until doubled, 1 1/2 hours. Punch down dough, but do not knead. Cut in half and shape each half into a ball. Place each ball on a lightly oiled baking sheet, cover with a towel, and let rise 45 to 55 minutes (but not until truly doubled. Heat the oven to 450F. Just before you put the loaves in the oven, slash the top of each in an asterisk with a razor blade and sprinkle half the sea salt into the cuts. [I use an egg white wash to act as glue for the salt.] Bake 10 minutes, spraying three times with water. Reduce the heat to 400F and bake 30 to 35 minutes longer. Cool on racks. Regards, Bobbi --------------- END bread-bakers.v097.n047 --------------- Copyright (c) 1996-2000 Regina Dwork and Jeffrey Dwork All Rights Reserved