Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 00:01:58 -0700 (PDT) -------------- BEGIN bread-bakers.v098.n056 -------------- 001 - Buese - need wheat sandwich bread 002 - Emily Greenberg Subject: need wheat sandwich bread Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:57:58 -0500 (CDT) I'd like a machine recipe for wheat bread that won't crumble when you make a sandwich with it. The one I have works okay the first day, but then it's only good for croutons! Lisa buese@gvi.net Lisa Buese Ste. Genevieve County, MoGenWeb Coordinator --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v098.n056.2 --------------- From: Emily Greenberg Subject: slicing the bread Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 08:55:27 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) I've been getting fabulous results from my bread machine and can't live long enough to use all the recipes I've collected. The only problem is slicing the bread! Don't tell me to wait until it cools -- i'm doing that. I bought one of those knives with the guide thingie on it, but it's difficult to make it stay vertically straight. Has anyone else had trouble slicing their bread? Any helpful suggestions? Thanks! Emily R. Greenberg --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v098.n056.3 --------------- From: Ruth Warren Subject: help Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 14:10:10 -0500 I know, I know, read the book. BUT... could anyone explain to me how to take a recipe posted here in mastercook format and put it in my mastercook, a new cookbook I'm putting together of my bread recipes. I just got mastercook lasst week and have had time only to play a little bit and am thoroughly confused. But know it has possibilities. thanks, ruth ************************************************************************ http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Acres/8785 ************************************************************************ --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v098.n056.4 --------------- From: REARDOM@aol.com Subject: Horizontal Bread Makers Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:14:28 EDT Ray asks about any experience we've had with horizontal bread makers. I too have been in the market for a new bread machine and first tried the Regal Kitchen Pro. I made 6 different batches in this machine and not one turned out well. I think it may be because it has only one paddle and the ingredients didn't get mixed in well and the loaf didn't ever turn out nice and smooth. I recently tried a Breadman machine (vertical loaf) but it was SO LOUD I returned it after making the first loaf. Haven't yet found a permanent replacement. I'd love to hear what anyone else has to say about horizontal machines and their experiences. Jill --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v098.n056.5 --------------- From: Rosemary Grimm Subject: horizontal bread machine Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 12:47:35 PDT Dear Roy, Call me a curmudgeon, but I can't believe that someone addicted to bread making would buy a bread machine. Of course if one has a disability and lots of money, that's a different story. And I can see someone becoming addicted to breadmaking with a machine and moving on. Considering how to spend a couple hundred bucks (actually closer to $300) on a bread related appliance, I would opt for a large Kitchen Aid mixer. Can your bread machine whip 16 egg whites for an angel food cake or whip 1/4 cup cream for whipped cream? The KA mixer can. Rosemary Grimm, GARVANZA, CALIFORNIA www.geocities.com/NapaValley/4496 ------------------------------------- Learn as if you will live forever. Live as if you will die tomorrow. --Gandhi ------------------------------------- --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v098.n056.6 --------------- From: Jean Sutherland Subject: European-style breads Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 11:18:42 -0700 I would like a little help improving the look of my bread. I have recently attempted a Pain au Levain recipe I got through "Bread Alone" by Daniel Leader. I developed the chef and followed all the steps as accurately as I could. I was totally blown away by the magic of watching a pinch of yeast develop into a very tasy and well risen loaf. The bread was fabulous. I had one problem, though. I used a baking stone and tried to spray water on the walls of my oven with a spritzer but still didn't get the dark color I was looking for. The water seemed to evaporate almost on contact and very little steam appeared. Is this the real trick to getting more color in a home oven? Without adding any other ingredients to the bread (like sugar or eggs, etc) I would like a darker color on the loaves. Can I get any suggestions? Jean jsuth@internetcds.com Aloha, Oregon PS. I was at the Summer Loaf for a brief time and loved it. I hope to go every year. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v098.n056.7 --------------- From: "Julia S. Tingler" <3TEATIME@prodigy.net> Subject: Anyone have a basic pizzelle recipe? Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 07:55:53 -0400 Hello, I have been receiving this list for a very long time but rarely have time to wade thru all of the wonderful recipes. I have, however, acquired a Kitchen Aid mixer and have decided to get back to "real" bread making, instead of relying on my breadmaker all of the time. My mother-in-law was able to find a pizzelle maker at Service Merchandise, for 14.95. It did not have the box (it was the display, last one) or the recipe book or a manual. She has wanted one for a long time, though, and asked the manager about the recipes. The manager gave it to her at $5 and some change! Suffice it to say she is ready to begin making some pizzelles!!! The only problem is that she has no recipes. Can someone help her? Please email me directly, as I receive the digest version and sometimes do not read all of the digests. You could also email Rita, my mother-in-law directly, at Grammy1@worldnet.att.net Thanks in advance! Julia T 3teatime@prodigy.net --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v098.n056.8 --------------- From: Mitch Smith Subject: New to the list Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 11:44:52 -0500 "Nancy A. Bedell" wrote: >I am new to the list and have been making my own bread for about >2 to 3 months. >I just bought a 25# bag of bread flour from Sams and some Wheat >Germ. Can anyone tell me how much Wheat Germ I would put in for >a 1 1/2 # loaf of bread to make Whole Wheat bread? Looking at a wheat berry, about three-quarters of it is the starchy endosperm which makes up white flour and also contains the proteins which allow gluten formation. The two other primary components of wheat are the germ (from which a new wheat plant would sprout) and the bran which is the outer hull of the berry and is the source of fiber. To recreate a whole-wheat flour to make a whole-wheat bread, you would need to add both germ and bran back to the white flour. Roughly speaking, take a cup of flour and remove 4 tablespoons of flour. Then add back about 2 tablespoons each of bran and germ to the cup. Repeat for each cup of flour in the recipe. Keep in mind that whole wheat flour does not rise quite as well as plain white flour (the bran interfers with gluten formation.) My preference when I bake whole grain breads is to start with a whole grain flour instead of trying to "recreate" the flour from individual components. - Mitch --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v098.n056.9 --------------- From: jlee@cccp.net (John Lee) Subject: Some questions about flour Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 20:46:01 +0100 A supermarket chain here in Britain has finally brought us bread machines at sensible prices (69.99 UK pounds, about half price) so I bought one and have been making bread like crazy for the past week. However, like most things in this country, strong bread flour is expensive - about 79 pence for 1.5 kgs against just 12 pence for supermarket's own low price brands of all purpose plain white flour. Unfortunately the supermarkets do not sell an equally cheap strong bread flour. However, I have been looking at a few bread web sites and in a couple of them it is suggested that if you take all purpose plain white flour and add a small quantity of wheat gluten you end up with a flour suitable for making bread. So my idea is to buy the cheap white flour, turn it into bread flour and save money. But when I ask all the local health food stores if they stock wheat gluten they look at me as if I am speaking a foreign language - they seem to have no idea what I am talking about. Can anyone kindly advise me (a) just what wheat gluten is and what it looks like, (b) whether just adding wheat gluten in fact will produce an acceptable bread flour and (c) if any British readers know of any UK source for wheat gluten and what it might cost. Thanks for any advice on this subject - copying to my e-mail address would be appreciated. ===================== John Lee (UK) e-mail jlee@cccp.net ===================== --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v098.n056.10 --------------- From: Rosemary Grimm Subject: wheat germ bread Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 12:46:34 PDT Dear Nancy, Adding wheat germ will not give you whole wheat bread. You will have white bread with wheat germ. Wheat germ will add a buttery flavor to the bread. Here's a good recipe for an easy bread with wheat germ: 1 cup oatmeal 1 cup wheat germ 6 cups flour 1 Tbsp salt 1/2 tsp yeast about 3 cups tepid water An hour before bedtime, grind oats into flour in a blender, food processor or spice(coffee) grinder. Mix the dry ingredients in a bowl. Add the water to make the dough. Knead it until smooth and elastic. Put it back in the unwashed bowl. Cover with a damp towel (or oiled plastic wrap, if you must.) The next morning, punch down the dough. Shape into two loaves and put in oiled or buttered pans. Cover with a floured towel (or oiled or buttered plastic wrap, if you must.) Leave at room temp. When you come home from work, put the pans in the oven and turn it on to 400F. Bake about 45-50 minutes. (about 40 minutes in a preheated oven, but why preheat?) Test for doneness by thumping on the bottom; it should sound hollow. Or test with an instant read thermometer for 200F. If not done return to oven (no need to put back in pans) and recheck in 5 minutes. This is a wonderful, high light and delicious bread, excellent toasted; it's more nutritious than white alone, but it's not whole wheat. For more advice and recipes for whole grain (and white) breads, visit my web site. Rosemary Grimm The Blue Ribbon Bakery www.geocities.com/NapaValley/4496 ------------------------------------- Learn as if you will live forever. Live as if you will die tomorrow. --Gandhi ------------------------------------- --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v098.n056.11 --------------- From: "Eisenreich, Pete" Subject: Rugbroed Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 08:02:01 -0400 There's been some discussion about a mystery Danish bread. I saved these several years ago thinking they might be interesting to try. Never got around to it. These are not mine, all credits to Katrine Kirk. Peter.Eisenreich@jhuapl.edu recipes follow: >From: iqkk@hp3.cbs.dk (Katrine Kirk) >Subject: Rugbroed: Danish Rye Bread (corrected) >Date: 15 Nov 1994 19:34:53 GMT RUGBROED: Danish rye bread The virtues of rugbroed are many. The taste & texture are wonderful. It's cheap and simple to make (although you must allow for some trial & error). It's extremely healthy - very low fat, very fibrous, and very good for your digestive system. It's the one thing I missed the most when I lived in the States for a year and didn't have an oven. Delicious! What more can I say? Except that I'm biased, of course. The following recipe was given to me by my aunt Fro. It's a "modern" version of the ancient staple food of Denmark: Rugbroed (=Ryebread). Traditionally, rugbroed was made only from sourdough, rye flour and water, and the process involved a lot of hard work with kneading. My grandmother still makes rugbroed that way, and the results are deli- cious, but very different from the recipe below. This bread is very easy to make, in that it requires little work and no kneading at all. The finished bread is extremely heavy, very dark brown, and keeps well for about a week at room temperature. It's not very sour, but has a "dense" flavour that compliments good cheese superbly. We eat it with all kinds of toppings, and rugbroed is the only appropriate bread to have with pickled herrings or pate or coldcut meats in this country. Rugbroed is very similar to German Schwarzbrot (not pumpernickel), also a pure rye flour. Making rugbroed is quite different from making any other kind of bread. You can't rely on your intuitions about texture or baking times. I've tried to make careful notes during my own baking process to assist first-time rugbroed bakers, but you should be prepared to attempt this a couple of times before giving up. The "difficult" element is getting the baking time and - temperature right, and no two ovens are the same. (After moving to a new apartment this sum- mer, I had to make rugbroed 4 times before I got it "right" again, simply because I had switched from an electric oven to a gas oven.) If you haven't already got a sourdough starter, you need to allocate a week or so from you start till you are actually eating rugbroed. With a starter on hand it will take three days. (But I think it's worth it.) Note: I'm including metric measures. I know they don't correspond exactly to the Amercian units, but if you follow all the metric units consistently, the proportions will be correct. I'm unsure about some of the ingredients. If you can't find malt beer, use any dark beer (NOT Budweiser) or even just water and some malt powder. When I say "cracked rye" I mean rye kernels that are not whole, but chopped up into about 3-4 pieces on average. You could use whole rye kernels/berries, but then you must allow for at least 8 hours rising time before baking (to soften the kernels). "Rye flour" in the recipe is a rather coarsely ground 100% rye flour - with little bits of grain clearly visible in it. "Graham flour" is 100 % wheat with the texture of corn meal; it's probably called something else in other countries. You could omit it and just use rye flour in its place. The same goes for the cracked wheat (wheat grains chopped coarsely) - replace with cracked rye. But I must say that the presence of a little wheat considerably improves the flavour of the bread. Fro's rugbroed - recipe for one 2-quart size loaf ================================================= day 1 Make the sourdough (5 minutes work) day 5 Make the sponge (15 minutes work) day 6 Make the dough (10 minutes work) ... 3 - 9 hours to rise... Bake the bread (5 minutes work) ... 2 hours to bake ... Cover (2 minutes work) day 7 Begin to eat. I find it's not a problem to find time to do all this if I make the sponge on an afternoon or in the evening, make the dough next morning before going to work, and bake it in the early evening. Sourdough starter: 1 cup buttermilk (2 1/2 dl) 1/2 cup rye flour (1 1/4 dl) 1/2 tsp salt Mix buttermilk, rye flour and salt in a bowl, leave to stand uncovered on the counter. (The amounts are approximate - the mixture should be quite fluid. Add more buttermilk or water if the starter thickens too much.) You can also use a good plain yoghurt instead of buttermilk, but add some water if you do. Stir the starter with a spoon at least once a day. Keep it loosely covered with paper or foil from the second day. Don't refrigerate. From the second or third day, you should see little air bubbles forming in the starter, and it will pro- bably have a more grayish colour than it did at first. It should begin to smell slightly sour, but the smell disappears upon stirring. Usually the starter takes about 5 days to make. It's ready when it has swollen somewhat in volume and the air bubbles are plentiful after resting for 6 hours or so. The quality of the starter is not terribly crucial; rugbroed doesn't (and shouldn't) rise very much during baking. If mold forms on the starter just scrape it off. It's not of a dangerous kind. (So sayeth Fro, our all-purpose reference cookbook and my bread cookbook.) If you don't plan to use the starter immediately, cover it tightly and refrigerate. It will keep for several weeks. Making the sponge: sourdough starter (all of it, min. 1/2 cup) (1 - 2 dl) 3 cups lukewarm water (7.5 dl) 3/4 cup packed "graham flour" = coarse wheat flour (125 gr.) 3/4 cup packed all purpose flour (125 gr.) 1/2 cup flax seeds (75 gr.) 1/2 cup plain raw sunflower seeds (75 gr.) 1 cup cracked rye grains (175 gr.) 1 1/4 cup cracked wheat grains (200 gr.) 2 tsp. kosher or sea salt (if tablesalt, use less) (2 tsp) Note: when making this a second time, omit salt, since it has already been sprinkled on your starter. Mix all ingreadients together in a large bowl, cover with wet towel, and let stand at warm room temperature until next day. (At least 12 hours, but up to 36 hours is fine. Sourness increases with standing, but won't be very predominant in the final result anyway.) Dampen towel when dry to prevent moisture loss from the sponge - which could affect the final result. (The sponge is very thin and liquid when just mixed, but will quickly become quite thick from the grains absorbing liquid.) Making the dough: 1 cup malt beer (or water + 1 tbsp. malt powder) (2.5 dl) 1 tbsp. packed brown sugar (or dark syrup) (15 ml.) 1 tsp. ground caraway seeds (optional) (5 ml.) 3 cups cracked rye grains (500 gr.) Stir all ingredients together with the starter and pour into a greased loaf pan that will hold 2 quarts (2 liters). If you think you'd like to make this bread again, save 1 cup of dough to use as a starter next time. Put this in a jar, sprinkle with 2 tsp. coarse salt, cover tightly and refrigerate. The dough should be wet and just barely liquid, like a very thick porridge. Let the bread rise in the loaf pan, covered with a damp towel, for at least 3 hours, or even the whole day, at room temperature. (Warmer if you take the shorter rising time.) The bread won't rise very much, perhaps only an inch or so. Paint the top of the bread with melted butter or cold water. Put it in a cold oven and set the temperature at 390 F (200 C). From the time the oven is warm, the baking time is about 90 minutes. If the top looks like it's blackening, cover with tin foil. It's very difficult to tell when the bread is done. Take it out of the loaf pan and give it a knock on the bottom with your fist. If it doesn't resonate hollowly, it certainly isn't done. If it sounds hollow, insert a bamboo skewer into the middle. If the tip comes out clean, it's _probably_ done. The crust should feel quite hard. If in doubt, leave the bread in the oven as the oven cools. Don't attempt to slice the bread for at least 10 hours after baking. It's actually best 2 or 3 days old. Place the bread on a rack and cover with a towel (unless you are leaving it in the oven). Leave it till next day. Slice rugbroed very thinly (1/4th inch, 0.5 - 0.75 cm) and serve with butter and/or cheese. >From the day after it's baked, store rugbroed in a bread box or plastic bag at cool room temperature. It freezes quite well, but tends to become a little crumbly after thawing. Rugbroed stays fresh for about a week. If you have problems: If the bread seems very wet inside upon slicing, try putting it back in the oven to be warmed through at a fairly low temperature. I think about 1/2 hour at 100 C / 210 F would be appropriate. Even a perfectly baked loaf will be a little sticky the day after it's baked, but it improves over another day or two. If the crust stays extremely hard on the second day, try lowering the oven tem- perature a little and extending baking time the next time you attempt. Much depends on the shape of your loaf pan (wide & flat or short & tall make a world of difference) and on the actual moistness of the dough. I can only recommend that you make careful notes about what you are doing so you know what to adjust a second or third time. If you like the _taste_ of the bread, but not its crust or wetness the first time, please try making it again. It really is a learning process. And if you happen to _really_ like this recipe, I think it would be fun if you sent my aunt a postcard. She has no idea what Internet is, but does understand English. (She doesn't even know I've published her recipe here.) Her address is: Fro Galskov Praestemosevej 24 DK-3480 Fredensborg Denmark This was a longwinded post. I hope you've born over with me. Thanks are due to Bill (aa688@po.cwru.edu) and Barnaby (barnaby@world.std.com) for help in figuring out how to "internationalise" my ingredients. Bake away! Katrine Kirk kk@cbs.dk ---------------------------- >From: iqkk@hp3.cbs.dk (Katrine Kirk) >Subject: Pure Rye bread. >Date: 18 Nov 1994 12:25:40 GMT cetfers (cetfers@cco.caltech.edu) wrote: : Does anyone out there have any experience making whole grain rye : bread with NO trace of wheat or added gluten? (With Sourdough or : ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ : Yeast) : I've tried to bake with whole grain home milled rye flour, but : So far, I've ony managed to create giant sticky blobs, and during : proofing, the blob just oozes out sideways. I don't "know" much about making rye bread except how to do it. So I can't really explain what your problem is. I know of two basically different approaches to rye bread. You can either make a regular dough that needs kneading, or a rather thick porridge using whole grains that are left to set via water absorption. (I've posted a recipe of this second type here a few days ago.) Since I don't know what your approach is, I can't comment on your problem, but I can tell you how kneaded rye bread is made in Denmark. The sourdough we use for rye bread is made from buttermilk and rye flour left uncovered for a day or two, then loosely covered and stirred regularly for another 3-5 days until it smells right. 3/4 cup is enough for a large loaf. Use water, sourdough, salt and rye flour. Replace some of the water with dark beer for better flavor, or add some malt. Make a dough that is somewhat wetter than for white bread, and let it rest a good half hour or more. On my grandmothers advice: 1/2 to 1 cup sourdough 1/2 to 1 Tbsp. sea salt (or Kosher salt) 1 cup lukewarm water Stir these together until well mixed. Add the following: 1 1/2 pound rye flour (a fairly coarse grind) (For those who don't mind wheat: replace slightly under 1/2 pound of the rye with regular all-purpose flour. This will produce a chewier bread with a slightly lighter texture.) Hold back a little of the rye to see if you need it all. You might need more. Rye flour takes longer to absorb water than wheat flour, and that is why it needs to seem "wet" just after mixing. Leave it in a large, flat bowl to rest (to prevent "oozing"). Then knead the dough on your countertop or in the bowl by punching the middle thin and folding the sides over the middle repeatedly. My grandmother does this for about 10 minutes, and the dough becomes smoother and more elastic as she works it. Don't expect it to achieve the texture of of white bread dough. Save a 3/4 cup lump of dough at this stage, if you plan to make the bread again. Put in a jar with a tight-fitting lid, sprinkle salt on top, and refrigerate for up to a month. Shape the dough into an elongated loaf and press it into a well-greased 2 to 2 1/4 quart loaf tin. (If using anything smaller the baking times below will be off.) Run a wet hand over the top, cover with a damp towel, and leave to rise to near double size, typically 4-6 hours, in a warm place. : What ends up coming out of the oven is more like a giant elongated : rye falafel, than a loaf of bread. (So far, I've used Yeast rather : than sourdough, since I am still learning how to handle this stuff : (Rye)) Run a wet hand over the top of the bread again before placing in heated oven. Bake at a much lower temperature than you would for wheat. 1/2 hour at 200 C followed by 1 1/2 hour at 175 Celsius is probably about right. A bamboo skewer inserted into the middle should come out free of large bits of dough, but slightly sticky to the touch. Take it out of the oven, sprinkle a little cold water on the crust if it seems very hard, and leave to cool on a rack covered by a slightly damp towel. This traditional bread is supposed to be a little sticky on the inside when it is freshly baked. It is also supposed to be sliced very thinly, revealing a thick, dark crust (which frankly is a little hard on your teeth) and a moist brown bread with many, many little airbubbles. It should taste distinctly sour. This bread is best at least a day after it is baked. It will keep for a week or so. : Leonard's "The bread book" instructs to use more water with Rye : than with wheat, but my experience so far is that exactly the : opposite is true. Again, I think you need to be patient before beginning to work the dough. Give the rye time to absorb the water. : [accidental snip] : shape the loaf, I pretend the blob is a chunk of clay (it looks : just like clay) and I use wet hands rather than flour on my hands. This shouldn't be necessary with the recipe I've given you. : Any clues would be greatly appreciated! Experiment, take notes of what you do, and change baking times, temperatures, or wetness of dough next time if you aren't satisfied. Good luck doesn't hurt either. Best wishes... Katrine Kirk kk@cbs.dk P.S. Like I said in the other recipe for Danish rye bread, I think it would tremendous fun if you have success with the recipe to send it's creator a postcard. My grandmother would be thrilled. She originally came from the Faroe Islands in the 1930's, taking this recipe with her. I don't know where it originated, but she received it from her older sister with a lump of sourdough before my grandmother set sail for Denmark. Her address is as follows: Brynhild Kirk Peder Gydes Vej 57 6700 Esbjerg Denmark No obligations, of course. :) --------------- END bread-bakers.v098.n056 --------------- Copyright (c) 1996-2000 Regina Dwork and Jeffrey Dwork All Rights Reserved