Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 04:02:04 -0700 (PDT) -------------- BEGIN bread-bakers.v101.n037 -------------- 001 - Paul and Ruth Provance

- Re: bread rising too much in machine 010 - Susan Barron Subject: Bread in the BBQ Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 09:19:06 -0400 Dear Sue H. I have baked bread in the Webber Kettle grill, but it was a long time ago. As I recall, I made a regular rye bread in loaf pans and baked it over indirect heat -- that is, I banked the coals on each side of the grill, leaving a space in the center with no coals. After the bread was ready, I put the two loaf pans side-by-side over the area with no coals, covered the grill, and went away. After a while, I probably rotated the loaves so that the sides away from the coals now faced the coals and I got more even baking. I think that a kettle grill set up this way probably has a temperature of about 350 degrees F., as chicken and stuff cooks in about the same length of time as in an oven at that temp. As I recall (and this may have been 20 years ago!), the bread turned out fine, and one of the neighbors remarked on the aroma! I haven't tried it since, which is a pity, since we now have two Webber Kettles! Try it, you may like it! Keep baking bread! Ruth --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n037.2 --------------- From: "Phil and Amy Will" Subject: grain mill attachment for the KA mixer Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:00:14 -0400 Hi! Does anyone have any experience with the grain mill attachment for the KA mixer? I would love to grind my own flour, and would prefer to get this attachment rather than purchase a separate appliance - but only if it's worth it. Will I be able to grind a soft wheat berry fine enough so that it's like pastry flour? I would love to hear any information you have on it's use - any pros or cons or helpful hints. Also, does anyone know where I can get a good price on one? Thanks for your help! (I have learned so much from this list!) Amy --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n037.3 --------------- From: "linda grande" Subject: the ultimate sandwich bread Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 18:19:33 +0000 I got the following recipe through a friend on another list. It turned out to be just about the best loaf of bread I've ever made. I've been searching for years for a flavorful, light and fluffy, yet substantial loaf, and this is it! I made the dough in my bread machine, then baked it off in my oven because I prefer a regular loaf shape and the softer crust that comes out of my conventional oven. I hope you'll try the recipe, I guarantee you'll love it! Ultimate Sandwich Bread ======================= 1 Cup Water 2 Tbsps Oil 1 3/4 Cups Bread Flour 1 Cup Whole Wheat Flour 1/3 Cup Rye Flour 2 Tbsps vital wheat gluten 3 Tbsps Sugar 1 tsp Salt 2 tsps Yeast Place all ingredients in your bread machines in the order specified by the manufacturer. Select 'basic' or 'white' cycle. (I baked this at 375 F for 35 minutes.) --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n037.4 --------------- From: Jeff Dwork Subject: Bread machine temperatures and pan thicknesses Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 01:34:05 -0700 Some issues have been raised by a recent post in bread-bakers that reported on temperature measurements and pan thicknesses for several bread machines. In a bread machine, the heating element transfers heat to the pan by heating the air outside the pan. Air convection in the space between the pan and the surrounding wall distributes the hot air around the pan. The air heats the pan, which heats the dough inside the pan. The heating of the dough occurs by conduction from the pan to the wet dough directly contacting the pan. If the pan is empty and the temperature probe is inside the pan and not in contact with it, the transfer of heat to the probe depends on convection currents in the air inside the pan. Convection occurs when a liquid or gas is heated in one place and cooled in another, like water heating in a pan, or the air outside the pan in contact with the heating element and the top cover of the machine. The larger the temperature difference, the stronger the convective flow. But inside the pan, the heat is spread out by the pan and the temperature of the pan is much lower than the temperature of the heating element, so the convection currents will be weak. Any cold air leak through the lid seal, especially where the probe wires exit, will cool the air inside the pan much more than the air outside. When bread is baked in a pan, whether in an oven or a bread machine, the pan is quite thin. The dough contains water, some of which remains when the bread is fully baked. The temperature of the bread cannot exceed the boiling point of water; the final temperature of properly baked bread is 30 degrees F or more below boiling. The pan conducts heat well, so the outside of the pan is close to the temperature of the surface of the baking bread. The air in the oven is hotter by 200 degrees F or more. Heat transfers from the air to the pan and onward to the bread. The air cools and circulates down to the heating element to be heated again. A thick baking pan has no advantage over a thin pan. A thick pan will take longer to heat because the hot air must heat more metal. This will result in the top of the dough which is exposed to the air baking faster than the bottom. Frying pans are very different. The temperature difference across the bottom of a frying pan from where it is in contact with the flame to places where it is not is very large - many hundreds of degrees F. A thick pan conducts significantly from side to side, smoothing the temperature distribution on the cooking surface. I suspect that the thickness of bread machine pans is determined by the mechanical requirements of the kneading process and not by thermal considerations. A bread machine is a very small oven. The distance between the pan and the wall is very much smaller than the distance from side to side or top to bottom. There is significant heat loss through the walls of the bread machine and out the lid and top seal. These areas are close to the pan and to the exposed top of the bread. All this is very different from a conventional oven which is a closer to a large cube with the bread far from the walls and door. In my experience with several different bread machines, there are significant differences between them. Clearly some are from the mixing, kneading and rising as can easily be seen by observing the dough. Likely the baking adds more differences. Differences in dimensions, lid design and insulation are certain to cause differences in the air temperature distribution around the pan from one machine to another. Even though two machines are both at the same temperature (as measured in a similar way in both machines), I suspect (but have no proof) that the bread will bake differently. I believe that temperature settings on bread machines are useful as relative indications only, so the actual numbers are not very important. Jeff --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n037.5 --------------- From: Reggie Dwork Subject: refrigerated dough Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 01:44:07 -0700 How long can you keep kneaded dough in the refrigerator before you have to throw it out? This isn't sourdough (or at least it didn't start out that way). Reggie & Jeff --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n037.6 --------------- From: NSimZim@aol.com Subject: Pizza on the grill Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 13:37:30 EDT Recently, Sue asked about pizza on the grill. There are many different schools of thought about how to grill a pizza, but we make grilled pizza at least once a week and have tried all sorts of temperatures, grills and distances from the fire. First, we like the Weber charcoal kettle grill as opposed to a smoker or a gas grill; the flavor is much stronger and the temperature gets hot enough from beginning to end. Second, we place the dough on aluminum foil (sprayed with olive oil). This works better than a metal sheet on the grill and is easier to get a peel under it (I would like to try a pizza stone as well). Third, we make the pizza up all at once (don't cook the crust seperately) and put it on the fire HOT. This means that as soon as the coals are dropped from the chimney into the kettle, the first pizza goes on (I can get two large pizzas out of the coals, I've never tried pushing it to three). Lastly, watch the bottom of the crust, don't trust the top to brown the same! --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n037.7 --------------- From: Reggie Dwork Subject: England bread classes Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 23:55:56 -0700 I don't remember if I posted this already ... but here are some bread baking classes in England. http://www.village-bakery.com/courses/details.htm Reggie --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n037.8 --------------- From: Linda Rehberg Subject: Re Pita Bread Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 03:53:41 -0700 Dick, re your pita breads that bake up unevenly......they need better air circulation on both sides. Try baking them on a cake rack placed directly on the oven rack rather than the solid baking stone. I think you'll find that will solve the problem. They should be baked at 500 degrees for 4 - 5 minutes and then immediately placed in a paper sack or covered with slightly damp dish towels until they cool. That will keep them pliable. Hope that works for you! Linda Rehberg co-author of the BREAD MACHINE MAGIC series of books --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n037.9 --------------- From: Sue Subject: Re: bread rising too much in machine Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 12:14:24 -0400 I just realized that my recent replies to this list are being sent to never-never land because the "from" field is an error trap, not a real "from." Oh well. So I've copied and and pasted them below. >To Susan Barron who was having problems with her bread rising too much in the bread machine. I have a Toastmaster and the pan in the model I have (1155) is on the small side of 1.5 lb. I have some tips at my website that might help you (though some of the information is dated- eg. it seems that 2 lb loaves are now more common than 1.5). http://users.rcn.com/sue.interport//food/abmhints.html > >If you are using no more than 3 c flour then the overflowing is probably due to too much liquid. Because of the small, closed container, the bread machine retains moisture compared to baking in an open oven so the dough should be drier (though still smooth). Also, some recipes just rise more than others, in which case I back off a few tablespoons on the flour too, then adjust the liquid. If you are using bread flour, extra gluten is not needed. > >Good luck! > >I also have the Tupperware bread keeper and love it. Actually, I have two of them. They are also great as cookie jars when not being used for bread. > Sue(tm) Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself! --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n037.10 --------------- From: Susan Barron Subject: adobe oven Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 13:27:13 -0400 Deb in Virginia asked about the adobe oven I mentioned in a previous post. The directions for the one we made are in an old cookbook published in 1974, the Sunset Italian Cook Book, written by the editors of Sunset Books and Sunset Magazine, published by Lane Books, Menlo Park. I don't know if it is still available or not.The materials are mud, bricks, cement, some chicken wire and 1/2 of a cardboard drum & wood for the door. It's not really complicated, but it did work well. It was wood fired. You simply built the fire on the floor of the oven and when it had heated the oven sufficiently the wood and ash was swept out of the oven and the bread put in when it had cooled to the correct baking temp. I have also read a very good book titled The Bread Builders by Daniel WIng and Alan Scott It gives very detailed instructions for building masonry ovens, and I know it is still available. The book also has great, useful information about sourdough baking. Definitely worth looking into if you are interested in wood fired brick ovens. Hope this helps. Susan --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n037.11 --------------- From: "Fredericka Cohen" Subject: KitchenAid Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 19:43:29 -0400 There have been so many negative comments about KitchenAid since it "left" Hobart that I thought I would pass on a positive experience. The finish on my 1978 K5 dough hook began to peel so I called Culinary Parts. They sent me to KitchenAid because they were afraid that the new parts would not fit. First of all, KitchenAid does not charge shipping on anything. This a big saving! Second, I ordered it via the web on Tuesday and it was in my mailbox Friday. Third, they have re-shaped it so it does a better job. My "never-fail Marcy Goldman challah" recipe was almost an inch higher! By the way, someone recently asked about recipes for, I be;lieve, fresh figs. If you can't find recipes or infprmation about any food, try contacting the trade association for that item. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n037.12 --------------- From: "Tom Brown (EUS)" Subject: Re: baking bread on grill Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 09:33:55 -0500 I have occasionally done this when camping - sourdough, english muffins, sourdough cheese biscuits [ with a touch of garlic, of course]. biscuits can be cooked/griled/baked in a heavy fry pan or griddle; need to adjust the height /or fire to control the heat. baking bread requires a little more watchfulness. I usually use a cast iron dutch oven [lined with aluminum foil - easy to remove, especially if it accidentilly gets too hot on the bottom. You put some of the fire coals around [and on top] of the durch oven ; sort of guess how much it takes. [ there are "formulas" of temperature and time if you use bricquets [ that spelling doesn't look right - and I can't check on the bag as I don't use them] . One time I used my foil lined cardboard 'solar oven' box as a enclosure - and it worked very well. [of course it also caught fire one time also!! Any technique that is intended for barbeque [ slow, lower heat, as opposed to grilling - fast, high heat] should work very well for baking. After all, people were baking bread for thousandds of years before all our 'modern appliances'- and in many parts of the world they stilll do! Tom brown, the crazy camp cook --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n037.13 --------------- This message removed by editor. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n037.14 --------------- From: Alexgejp@aol.com Subject: Archives; new bread machine Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 10:13:21 EDT To Reggie and Jeff - thanks to you and your predecessors for your combined efforts in establishing and maintaining the bread digest archives. I have begun reading the archives from the beginning in 1990 and am having SO much fun. I was amazed to learn that the List was begun for bread machine users, which explains why many postings have been about bread machines. However, I must say that this has in no way diminished my enjoyment in reading the digests since I learned about it a couple of years ago. My husband has been trying to talk me into a bread machine for several years but since he had already bought me a KitchenAid mixer, I always refused. I have finally agreed to a bread machine (Breadman Ultimate) and after four loaves, it is fast becoming my most prized possession (a category formerly held by my KitchenAid). My grandson was a little disappointed in me for getting a machine and I explained it to him this way. When I was very young, my Mother washed clothes by hand, then my Dad bought her a wringer washing machine, which she thought was the greatest invention ever, until he bought her an automatic washing machine so that all she had to do was put in the clothes and soap and turn it on. Making bread is basically the same - first I was making bread totally by hand, which was difficult when working with stiff doughs, then my husband bought me a KitchenAid mixer, which I thought was the greatest invention ever. Now with the purchase of a bread machine all I have to do in put in the ingredients, mash a couple of buttons and turn it on. Same analogy. PLUS the bread from the machine comes out just the way we like it, even better than before. The crow that I have been eating for the past couple of weeks has even tasted good. I wish I had done this a long time ago. So, I want to thank each and every subscriber who has written to the List who had a hand in convincing me that a bread machine is a good thing. Now I just hope my husband doesn't divorce me since my nose is always either on the Internet in the Bread Digest Archives or in a bread machine cookbook. Happy baking, Joy Alexander --------------- END bread-bakers.v101.n037 --------------- Copyright (c) 1996-2001 Regina Dwork and Jeffrey Dwork All Rights Reserved