Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 02:05:29 -0700 (PDT) -------------- BEGIN bread-bakers.v101.n049 -------------- 001 - "gloria welniak" - starter, bags, bowls & brown crust 013 - Lobo - to make sourdough SOUR! 014 - fred smith Subject: Frank re: browning of crusts Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 14:25:12 -0500 Frank - 1. Be sure your oven is heated to the correct temperature before you put your loaves in. It's my theory that the surface is sealed properly that way (okay, so it's only a theory). 2. Brush loaves with 1/2 tsp. cornstarch and 1/2 c. water (boiled and cooled slightly) once before putting in the oven and again 10 minutes later. 3. If you have an electric oven, throw a few ice cubes in the bottom of the oven at the beginning and again when brushing with cornstarch mixture the second time. 4. Be sure to include some sweetening in your recipe such as sugar, molasses or malt syrup or powder. 5. If all this fails, your oven is probably too cool. Crank it up a few degrees above what the recipe calls for. Good luck! Sourdough Gloria --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n049.2 --------------- From: "Mona" Subject: Bierbrot Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:23:28 +0200 * Exported from MasterCook * Bierbrot (beerbread) Recipe By :Monika Eckert Serving Size : 1 Preparation Time :0:00 Categories : Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method -------- ------------ -------------------------------- 1 1/8 pounds flour, white 1 1/8 pounds flour, rye 2 teaspoons salt 2 1/8 cups beer 1 1/16 cups water 2 packages yeast 1 teaspoon sugar Knead all ingredients to a dough. Store at a warm place an let it rise. Adding some more flour knead again and form into a loaf. Notch the surface deep and coat with beer until good wet. Let the loaf rise again and then bake at 356-392F for 60-70 minutes. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Per Serving (excluding unknown items): 2124 Calories; 6g Fat (2.6% calories from fat); 60g Protein; 418g Carbohydrate; 22g Dietary Fiber; 0mg Cholesterol; 4313mg Sodium. Exchanges: 26 Grain(Starch); 1/2 Lean Meat; 1/2 Other Carbohydrates. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n049.3 --------------- From: "Mona" Subject: Pulla Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:23:29 +0200 * Exported from MasterCook * Pulla Recipe By : Monika Eckert Serving Size : 1 Preparation Time :0:00 Categories : Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method -------- ------------ -------------------------------- 600 grams flour, wheat 200 grams flour, rye 1 pinch salt 1/4 liter milk 125 grams margarine or butter 1 package yeast 100 grams sugar, brown 2 eggs 1 teaspoon cardamom 125 grams raisin With all the ingredtients knead a smooth dough. Store at a warm place and let it rise. Add some more flour and knead it again. Form into a loaf, place on a baking tray and let rise again. The bake at 392-428F for about 40-50 minutes. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Per Serving (excluding unknown items): 1067 Calories; 18g Fat (14.7% calories from fat); 26g Protein; 213g Carbohydrate; 7g Dietary Fiber; 409mg Cholesterol; 428mg Sodium. Exchanges: 1/2 Grain(Starch); 2 Lean Meat; 6 1/2 Fruit; 1 Non-Fat Milk; 2 1/2 Fat; 6 1/2 Other Carbohydrates. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n049.4 --------------- From: "Mona" Subject: Gebutterte Mohnsemmeln Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:23:25 +0200 * Exported from MasterCook * Gebutterte Mohnsemmeln (Buttered Poppyseed-Rolls) Recipe By : Monika Eckert Serving Size : 14 Preparation Time :0:00 Categories : breads Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method -------- ------------ -------------------------------- 1/2 cup milk 1/2 cup water 1 1/4 ounces yeast, fresh 4 cups flour, all-purpose 1 teaspoon salt 1 egg 1/4 cup butter 1 egg yolk poppy seeds Warm milk and water until lukewarm. Dissolve the yeast in it. In a bowl mix flour and salt, add the yeast-mixture and the egg and stir until a smooth dough. Form the dough to a ball and let rise on a warm place for about 30 minutes. Knead the dough again and devide into 14 parts. Built a ball, warm the butter and turn each dough-ball in it. Place the rolls in a pan of 10 inches and let rise for another 30 minutes. Spread with egg yolk and sprinkle with poppy seeds. In a preheated oven bake for 40-45 minutes at 390F. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Per Serving (excluding unknown items): 173 Calories; 5g Fat (24.3% calories from fat); 5g Protein; 28g Carbohydrate; 1g Dietary Fiber; 39mg Cholesterol; 195mg Sodium. Exchanges: 2 Grain(Starch); 0 Lean Meat; 0 Non-Fat Milk; 1 Fat. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n049.5 --------------- From: "Mona" Subject: Georgian Yeast-Cheese-Bread Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:23:27 +0200 * Exported from MasterCook * Georgian Yeast-Cheese-Bread Recipe By : Monika Eckert Serving Size : 1 Preparation Time :0:00 Categories : breads Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method -------- ------------ -------------------------------- 4 3/4 cups flour 2 packages dry yeast 1 teaspoon salt 2 eggs 1/4 cup butter 5 1/8 cups curd cheese 2 eggs 2 1/4 cups gouda cheese 2 1/4 cups tilsit cheese 1 1/2 cups camembert cheese Place curd cheese in a sieve over night to dry. Prepare a yeast-dough with flour, yeast, salt, eggs, butter and as much warm water to make the dough smooth. Let rise on a warm place. For the filling remove rind from the camembert cheese and cut all kinds of cheese in small cubes. Mix together with curd cheese and eggs. Roll out the dough into a round shape of 24 inches, place the curd-cheese-mixture in the middle and fold the dough over the filling. Press together at the ends and bake at 390F for about 40 minutes. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Per Serving (excluding unknown items): 6753 Calories; 356g Fat (47.1% calories from fat); 381g Protein; 517g Carbohydrate; 21g Dietary Fiber; 1688mg Cholesterol; 10099mg Sodium. Exchanges: 30 Grain(Starch); 46 Lean Meat; 42 Fat; 3 Other Carbohydrates. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n049.6 --------------- From: "Mona" Subject: Nussbrot Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:23:28 +0200 * Exported from MasterCook * Nussbrot (Nut-Bread) Recipe By : Monika Eckert Serving Size : 1 Preparation Time :0:00 Categories : breads Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method -------- ------------ -------------------------------- 2 1/4 cups flour, wheat gluten 2 3/8 cups flour, all-purpose 2 1/2 teaspoons salt 1 cube yeast, fresh 1 5/8 cups water, lukewarm 3 tablespoons honey 1/2 cup almonds -- chopped 1/4 cup pistachio nut -- chopped 5/8 cup cashews -- chopped Mix together the flour. Spread salt on the border of the flour and the yeast in the middle. Dissolve with little water and honey, spread with some of the flour. Cover bowl with a kitchentowel and let rise on a warm place for about 15 minutes. Dissolve the remaining honey in the water and add the mixture step by step to the flour, stirring with a spoon. Knead with the hands to a smooth dough and add the nuts. Build a ball with the dough and cover again with the kitchentowel. Let rise for about 90 minutes in a warm place or until dough is double as high as before. Knead the dough strongly and build two round breads. Sprinkle a baking tray with flour and place the breads on it. Cover again with the kitchen towel and rise another 30 minutes. In a preheated oven at 430F bake the bread for 15 minutes, then reduce the heat to 350 °F and bake another 20-25 minutes. Set on a wire netting and let cool. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Per Serving (excluding unknown items): 3520 Calories; 101g Fat (25.5% calories from fat); 193g Protein; 471g Carbohydrate; 63g Dietary Fiber; 0mg Cholesterol; 5367mg Sodium. Exchanges: 27 1/2 Grain(Starch); 18 Lean Meat; 16 Fat; 3 1/2 Other Carbohydrates. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n049.7 --------------- From: "Mona" Subject: Laugenbrezeln Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:23:27 +0200 Hi everybody, today I send some recipes I've translated from German to English. I hope that everything is clear to understand and that you can get all ingredients. If you have a question please let me know. Mona from Germany This recipe is one of my familys favorites: * Exported from MasterCook * Laugenbrezeln (Salt Pretzel) Recipe By : Monika Eckert Serving Size : 8 Preparation Time :0:00 Categories : breads Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method -------- ------------ -------------------------------- 1 1/2 ounces yeast, fresh or 1 package dry yeast 1 1/4 cups water -- lukewar 1 teaspoon sugar 4 cups flour, all-purpose 1 tablespoon salt 2/3 ounce butter 6 1/3 cups water 1/8 pound sodium 2 tablespoons salt -- to sprinkle Dissolve yeast in water. Sieve flour in a bowl, add water, yeast, sugar, butter and salt and knead to a smooth dough. Divide into 8 pieces. Roll to a string of 16-20 inches and shape a pretzel. You can also built rolls with the dough. Cover with a kitchen towel and let rise for 10 minutes. In the meantime bring the water to boil, add sodium and cook the pretzels one after the other for 30 seconds. Remove from water, place them on a baking tray and sprinkle with salt (or poppy seeds, sunflower seeds, sesame seeds, whatever you like). Sprinkle salt on the pretzel immediately after removing from water. Store in a cool place for 30 minutes. Then bake in the preheated oven at 440F for 20 minutes. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Per Serving (excluding unknown items): 246 Calories; 3g Fat (9.4% calories from fat); 6g Protein; 48g Carbohydrate; 2g Dietary Fiber; 5mg Cholesterol; 827mg Sodium. Exchanges: 3 Grain(Starch); 1/2 Fat; 0 Other Carbohydrates. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n049.8 --------------- From: "Margaret Cope" Subject: Old fashioned bread "pails" Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 08:55:42 -0400 I have one pail that was used in my husband's grandparents home about 75 years ago ... proper Bostonians who had help ... and another one I found in an "antique" store about 30 years ago. I used both very successfully when I made 6-8 loaves at a time. Also the annual Holiday Stollen. Your discussion has peaked my interest again and I will experiment with it again to see if the output is as good as the results I get with my old powerhouse KA and dough hook. I make two loaves at a time. I disagree that the effort is more than kneading large amounts of dough. I do not use the clamp but usually set it on a towel in the sink to get the appropriate leverage. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n049.9 --------------- From: "Jack Hill" Subject: Breadman TR845 Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:23:29 -0500 Can anyone give me any input on the Breadman TR 845 machine? Our local Sam's has this at a fantastic buy of $60. It has a much larger viewing window. Thanks ..... Jack --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n049.10 --------------- From: BILLPOTE@aol.com Subject: Fres ground flour Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 12:56:44 EDT While traveling in Germany this summer, I came across a really interesting grain mill called the Fidibus. It was inverted by Wolfgang Mock and actually contains grinding stones. Upon returning to the US, after some negotiating, I persuaded Wolfgang to send a couple of mills to me (a baking friend wanted one, too). Without being too wordy I must say that I have been fascinated with fresh ground flours since I tried the grain mill on our Kitchen Aid. It always seemed like a lot of extra work to get out the KA, grind and then clean it up. The Fidibus had lots of appeal since it is a beautiful beech wood appliance (about the size of a toaster) which we all would be proud to leave on our counters. To make a long story short, I have been amazed at the difference fresh ground flour makes in bread, pancakes and muffins. Although any form of milling creates heat, stone grinding is somewhat cooler than steel and therefore preserves additional flavors and nutrients. Most health food stores (Whole Foods) carry a nice variety of wheat, oat, barley, rye, etc., berries. My basic method of bread making now is grinding about one cup barley, one cup oats and one cup wheat and mixing with 1 cup unbleached white flour, two teaspoons yeast and two cups + water to create a poolish. Let this, semi-batter rest for 30 to 40 minutes while the yeast works and the fresh ground flours find a happy medium with the water. Add two teaspoons salt and knead in about two cups unbleached white flour- till you have good dough. Let it rise once or twice and form into loaves and bake at 450F for about 25 to 30 minutes. This is the best thing I done to bread flavors since sourdough and of course, it requires no starter. I will be happy to share my recipes and experiences with others. If you would like to purchase a Fidibus Stone Mill, I may be able to arrange that as well. Digger billpote@aol.com --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n049.11 --------------- From: Nifcon@aol.com Subject: Smell of yeast - for Max Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:59:33 EDT Max I don't remember where I got this information, I've known it for a long time but the source remains forgotten. Anyway, the characteristic harsh yeasty smell is produced by DEAD yeast cells being autolysed and, if you've produced bread from a biga started with minimal yeast (I use 1 GRANULE of dried yeast to 200 gm starter) then nearly all the yeast in the final dough has been produced by multiplication from a very small start population hence the yeast has not run into food shortage or waste product accumulation so there are relatively few dead yeast cells. If you use large amounts of yeast at the start then (particularly with long fermentations) a significant proportion of the cells in the yeast do not revive and the living cells autolyse the dead ones for food, producing a "yeasty" smell. John Wright --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n049.12 --------------- From: Lobo Subject: starter, bags, bowls & brown crust Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:30:41 -0600 At 01:01 AM 10/14/01 -0700, various people wrote: From: Kevin Schlosser Subject: recipes for "bread bowls" and bread sticks I am looking for recipes to make bread "bowls", both a general recipe Use any bread recipe, roll out the dough to the thickness you want and drape it over an overturned custard cup, grabbit, etc. also like a recipe for soft breadsticks like the serve at Fazoli's, Olive garden, etc. Can anyone help? The first time I had Olive Garden breadsticks, they were crisp on the outside and soft on the inside, and butter/garlic soaked ... if anyone has that version of them, I'd love to have it. The way they are made now is boring to me. Subject: Re: Browning of Crust FMTZ@aol.com wrote >I cannot get my crusts to get as beautifully dark brown as those pictured in >books or, for that matter, available from artisan bakeries I got some recipes from a German friend with the following baking instructions: Preheat oven at 200C. (392F.) Put a little bowl with water in the oven ground. Bake bread on the first level of the oven about 50 to 60 min. (I generally bake at 350F for 40 min.) When I questioned the high temps, she said: "Don't worry! The first ten min. are necessary for the crust I think. 200C is quite normal. If you have an oven which "Umluft" circulating air (I think she means a convection oven?) you bake it 30 - 40C lower. You need also the higher temperature for the color and crust and because the dough is heavy (starch gets brown and there is no sugar in it). Pale bread doesn't look and taste good. Nobody would buy a pale, soft and doughy bread here. If you think your bread will get to dark cover it with foil the last 10 or 15 min. Every oven works different. But remember you need a thicker crust." Personally, I don't care to have a thick crust because it always seems to fall off the top when I slice it! From: "Dick Smith" Subject: Bread Bags I'm wondering if anyone on this list has information on buying the poly style bags that grocery store bakeries and regular bakeries use to package their bread? Presto makes a bag called "Food and Bread Storage Bag" that a loaf of homemade bread will fit into. They're 10" x 14". They're not freezer bags, but I freeze in them and unless the bread is in the freezer for months, it's just fine. From: Kathleen Subject: sourdough starters We moved across country a few weeks ago and had to toss out the starter rather than take it in the car in the heat. (Yes, I did try the drying My starter came to me about 30 years ago. I've taken it everywhere ... even to Korea for a 2 year military assignment! I put 1/4 cup in a little jar inside 3 Ziploc freezer bags in my suitcase in July. Yes ... it did expand and escape the jar to make somewhat of a mess after a 24 hour flight, but it didn't escape the bags. Once you get a good starter, hang onto it. You DO NOT have to bake every week. I use mine every 4-6 weeks. A friend to whom I'd given starter a couple years ago told me recently that he hadn't taken his starter out of the refrigerator for 9-10 months. When he did, it took a couple days to revive, but made the best loaf of bread he'd had in a long time. Here's my 4-H championship recipe (I and my sister won lots of purple ribbons on it in Minnesota) converted to sourdough: 4-H CHAMPION BREAD - SOURDOUGH VERSION Makes 4 loaves 3 cups sourdough 3 1/3 cups lukewarm water (beer or buttermilk, at room temp) 3/4 cup dry milk (optional) 1/4 cup + 2 tablespoons sugar 2 tablespoons salt 4 1/2 tablespoons margarine, melted 9-10 cups flour Mix sourdough, water, dry milk, sugar, salt, and margarine. Add 5 cups flour and beat until smooth. Let stand 15 minutes. Add flour to make a soft dough. Knead, adding flour, until dough is no longer sticky. Place dough in large bowl. Cover with a dish towel. Let rise until double in volume.* Knead down and divide into fourths. Let stand 15-30 minutes. Shape into loaves And place into greased and floured one-pound loaf pans. (To avoid flouring pans, use the following pan coating recipe.) Let rise until 3/4 inch over top of pan. Bake at 350F for 40 min. *On a cold day, you can speed the raising process. Set the oven to 200 degrees for 2 minutes. Turn oven off immediately and place bread, covered with aluminum foil - in metal or glass bowl only - in oven to raise. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n049.13 --------------- From: Lobo Subject: to make sourdough SOUR! Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:43:59 -0600 Here's how to get that sour taste in your sourdough bread. Pick an extremely busy week to bake, with only after 5 hours to do it and at least one social engagement during one of the evenings. 1. Remove starter from refrigerator and add flour and water. Let sit overnight. 2. Because you sleep late the next morning and don't have an extra 15 minutes to mix your bread recipe, throw another cup of flour and some water into the starter and go to work. 3. That evening after your social engagement, mix up part of your bread recipe: The required amount of starter liquid sugar and salt enough of the flour to make a muffin batter consistency. Put your remaining starter back in the refrigerator and go to bed. 4. Get up 10 minutes early and add the shortening and rest of the flour to the bread. Knead, throw a dishtowel over the bowl and go to work. 5. As soon as you get home after 5, form loaves and let them rise. Figure out what time you have to go to bed and put the bread in the oven 45 minutes before that no matter how little it's risen. WARNING: These could be bricks, but they'll be REALLY sour bricks! In fact, I almost threw those three loaves away ... you know that's sour because I never throw any decent food away! But then I discovered the dogs loved it, so they've been getting it 1/4 slice at a time. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n049.14 --------------- From: fred smith Subject: Re: bread storage bags Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 08:14:10 -0400 > Here's a question for this group. I have been baking and freezing bread in > the standard run of the mill ziplock style bags, both the 1 gallon and 2 > gallon sizes. > > I'm wondering if anyone on this list has information on buying the poly > style bags that grocery store bakeries and regular bakeries use to package > their bread? > > I know that KA carries some but was curious about other sources. > > Dick Smith Dick: I've purchased bags from companies that specialize in plastic bags! Check your yellow pages for bags, plastic or similar listings. Ask for food storage bags of whatever size you think is good, or if you don't know what size say you want bags suitable for storing loaves of bread, similar to bags used for commercial bread in the stores. Any well-stocked dealer will have several similar bags in stock. The only downside is that you may need to by a thousand of them, give or take, depending on how they're packaged. I used to have a lot of friends who baked, so we'd buy a box of these bags and split them up between us. At a penny or two each it didn't cost us much and we had a supply that was good for several years! Fred ---- Fred Smith -- fredex@fcshome.stoneham.ma.us ---------------------------- --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n049.15 --------------- From: Alan Woods Subject: starter Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:04:16 -0400 Olga: I've been using the King Arthur "New England" sourdough starter for about five years now (so by now it's a "Midwestern" starter, since I'm in Ohio), and have used Ed Wood's San Francisco starter and his Bahrain starter for about two years each. Different flavors, of course--but they're all good. I'd also suggest starting your own, just to see what results. I've done that as well, but the KA and Wood starters have better flavor and are far more consistent. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n049.16 --------------- From: "Greg Carpenter" Subject: RE; Crust Color and Steam Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:27:35 -0400 One must be careful with steam if a brown crust is desired. Keeping steam in the bake chamber too long will actually inhibit browning. The ideal circumstance is to fill the chamber with lots of steam, ideally under pressure, at the beginning of the bake. This steam should be allowed to linger until the bread has expanded to its full volume. Beyond this point the steam will inhibit browning. My preferred method for steam generation is to place a HEAVY cast iron vessel (large skillet or dutch oven) on the oven floor. Preheat it with the oven. When you load your bread, throw a good sized handful of ice cubes into the cast iron pan. This will provide a substantial amount of steam for quite a while, and the extra thermal mass of the cast iron will help retain heat in the oven while the door is open. Use a hot oven (425 to 450F). Once the steam is on the crust of the bread it will gelatinize the starch. As this gelatinized starch dries out it browns more easily than a non-gelatinized starch (more free sugar available for Maillard reactions, or something...) If it's not allowed to dry (i.e. too much steam) you will get a pale crust. If you want a crisper crust, watch the loaf closely. After it has reached full volume and begins to brown, open the oven and evacuate the moisture for thirty seconds or so. This is a good opportunity to CAREFULLY turn the loaf if your oven does not bake evenly. Finish baking at high heat until the crust is the color you want. Skip this step if you like a softer crust. In search of the Tall Crusty Loaf, Greg in Petoskey --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n049.17 --------------- From: Terry Vlossak Subject: More on Brown Crusts Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 15:27:23 -0700 (PDT) Hi Frank! I concur with several of my listmates: bake your bread at a higher temperature to get a brown and crispy crust. For a basic bread--one made with yeast, water, flour and salt--you can bake at 450 to 500F, get a great oven spring and a wonderful, brown and crispy crust. Of course, you'll need to reduce the baking time by 5-10 minutes of so. Steam and misting the loaf will help you achieve this also, but stop misting and make sure all of the water in the pan at the bottom of your oven has evaporated after the first 10 minutes of baking. When your oven is too wet for too long, you won't get either that brown color or a crispy outside. Another thing that helps my crusts is starting the dough with an overnight biga or poolish. A cup of water, 1/4 tsp. yeast and 2 cups of flour, stir it up in a large container, cover, and let it work overnight. When you're ready to make the dough the next day, add another cup of water, 1 tsp. yeast, flour and a Tbsp. or 2 of salt. Let this rise a few times before you form it into loaves, bake it at a high temperature, and you have not only crispy, brown crust, but great flavor as well. I've also learned that the more extra stuff you put into bread: sugar, honey, butter, milk, oil, eggs, the lower the temperature needs to be to bake these types of loaves. When I make challah, for example, or brioche, or panettone, I bake the loaves at 350F until they're done. If I put the temperature up much more than that, they brown too quickly because of the extra sugar. Also, the crusts don't get very crispy because of the extra fat they contain. And certainly not after they've been inside a plastic bag. One more suggestion Frank: have a professional calibrate your oven. Good Luck! Happy Baking! Terry --------------- END bread-bakers.v101.n049 --------------- Copyright (c) 1996-2001 Regina Dwork and Jeffrey Dwork All Rights Reserved