Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 23:40:38 -0700 (MST) -------------- BEGIN bread-bakers.v103.n015 -------------- 001 - "s.reinhart" - Scales 003 - "Peter and Susan Reinhart - Baker's Percentages 004 - "Bev C" Subject: Thank You, pizza testers Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 19:30:08 -0500 Dear All Pizza Testers, Just wanted to thank you all for your questionnaire responses. I now have, literally, a ream of pages filled with useful comments that will help me fine-tune or address problems in directions or weights. Some of your tricks of the trade may also find their way into the text. I'm overwhelmed with the support you've given me and can only say thank you very very much. The book is still scheduled for a November release looks like the title will be, "American Pie: My Search for the Perfect Pizza"), and I should be getting the manuscript back from the editor in about a week That's when I will make the adjustments. For this reason I will have to make Friday the 21st as the last day for responses if you are still doing any testing. Again, many thanks! Peter Reinhart --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n015.2 --------------- From: David Subject: Scales Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 05:01:36 -0600 Lissa, is the scale electric or manual? Dave, what brand is your scale? I think my Salter scale was made for the UK. It has grams first then ml, and last ounces. I believe i'd like a good manual scale. Though I could use the Salter grams for the percentage, at least on free style breads of my own, i'd rather buy a new one. I had one of those fancy manual scales once, with the sliding weight bars, but it measured only in grams, (and I wasn't into baking then). --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n015.3 --------------- From: "Peter and Susan Reinhart" Subject: Baker's Percentages Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 07:37:27 -0800 Dear All, Sorry to have created confusion in the baker's percentage situation. I used decimal figures rather than fractions because the reason for the formula percentages is in case anyone plans to make larger or smaller sized batches. I find that multiplying and dividing is easier with decimal numbers than with fractions. Yes, you do have to then convert those numbers to fractions if your scale is in fractions, and that often means rounding to the nearest quarter ounce. Because I know math is difficult for many, I gave the ingredients in volume measurements also (cups, teaspoons, etc.) for the specific recipe listed so you wouldn't have to use the math system to figure out the weights for the really small stuff like salt and yeast. One motive for the formula percentages and weights, as listed, was for professional bakers who want to convert the recipes into very large batches for production. If they need 165 pounds of dough, for instance, the formula makes it easier to calculate the individual weights, and then a small figure, say .065 ounce of instant yeast, becomes large enough to weigh rather than scoop with a teaspoon. On another point brought up by some, it is true that many brands of flour and various grinds of salt weigh out differently from each other. With flour it usually is because of moisture variations, which can be a result of the age of the flour. I used 3 1/2 cups of flour to the pound but that is just a ballpark weight. Some brands can take up to 4 cups of flour and others may only take 3 (but with most brands 3 1/2 cups is very close). That is why I qualified the instructions with the caveat to make adjustments as needed. It's not perfect but, short of dictating what brand you should use, it's as close as I could get. Hope this helps. Best Regards, Peter --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n015.4 --------------- From: "Bev C" Subject: lecithin vs eggs Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 07:01:11 -0600 Hi Linda, We use mostly whole wheat in our flour and have a good recipe that almost always rises beautifully using 100% whole wheat and very little sugar. Mostly we just use lecithin but sometimes use both an egg and lecithin if it's a sweeter loaf. But here's our basic recipe and maybe it will help. You'll note it's pretty similar to yours. 3 cups (13.5 ounces) whole wheat flour (making sure it is hard wheat) 3 Tablespoons vital wheat gluten 1 teaspoon salt 1 Tablespoon dough enhancer (made with lecithin, ask if you want the recipe) 1 1/4 cup water 1 tablespoon honey 1 tablespoon butter 1 1/2 teaspoons SAF instant yeast This is our standard bread. We use a bread machine for it and the only machine I've ever found that can make a great whole wheat loaf is the Panasonic. Before I had a bread machine (and also seeing how the Panasonic works), here's what I think helps this loaf. 1. Extensive kneading - this machine really whacks that dough around for a lengthy period of time. The gluten needs to develop and as there's no "bread" flour in here, it needs a long knead. 2. A rest between kneads. I've seen this called "autolyse" (I think). Whole wheat absorbs more liquid than white flour and takes longer to do so and this rest allows you to use less flour and still get a tender loaf. You could also use the sponge method. This bread seems plenty sweet to me without the addition of splenda but your tastes may vary. The yeast seems to have plenty of sugar to feed from. Happy Baking, Bev C --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n015.5 --------------- From: Jhawkblu@aol.com Subject: Flour question Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 08:43:00 EST Being diabetic, I have read that white flour is a no-no due to high carb count. Where does bread flour stack up against white flour? Whole wheat is considered to be ok. Ivan --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n015.6 --------------- From: Susan MacDonald Subject: Head cheese pans Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 09:47:08 -0800 In her post about KGO Beer Bread, Mavis Nolte mentioned her mother using head-cheese pans for bread. Those old pans are the best! If you see them at a garage sale or in a thrift shop, don't hesitate - scoop them up. I scored six for 75 cents each and paid $2 each for two more in the last year. I put 1 1/2 lbs of dough in them and get lovely shaped loaves with rounded tops. The only quibble is that the sides of the loaf don't brown well, but if that seems to be an issue, I take the loaf out of the pan and give it a few more minutes in the oven. Susan --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n015.7 --------------- From: "Mike Avery" Subject: Re: baking stone Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 13:57:59 -0700 FREDERICKA COHEN wrote: > I must have misunderstood the building supply source explanation > for a baking stone. > When I go into Lowe's or Home Depot and ask for "unglazed quarry > tiles", I get no response. I have found tiles like this at a local > ceramic craft shop where they are used in kilns. > At $6 for a 4 inch square....you figure the cost! Where are all those > tiles that people claim to buy for 99 cents!?!? > Please let me know directly at cohenfs@prodigy.net. I have some heavy > duty baking scheduled for next week. Since I live too many miles from a Home Depot or Lowes, I went to the local floor covering store. They carry carpet, vinyl tile, and ceramic tile. I picked up their odds'n'ends unglazed tiles for a song. Enough tiles to cover both racks of 5 ovens for about $20.00. As to Home Depot and Lowes, you might go back and ask again. When you get a blank look, ask the clerk how long they've been there. Then ask for someone who has been in the flooring area for more than a few months. I've heard again and again that people have gotten tiles there. Oh - before you bake with the tiles, wash them and then pre-heat them. I don't know why but all the ones I've bought have given off nasty smoke the first time they were heated. Good luck, Mike -- Mike Avery MAvery@mail.otherwhen.com --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n015.8 --------------- From: "Mike Avery" Subject: Re: KitchenAid vs. Breadmakers Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 14:02:04 -0700 lfc@juno.com wrote: > I have baked bread both as treats and staple bread for about 15 years. > I got a bread machine about 4 years ago and I really liked it for > simple white or 50/50 bread (whole wheat/white flour) for a couple of > years. For some reason, after a while it didn't bake as well. The > loaves don't rise in the bake enough. I figured it was something I > wasn't doing right. Reading all the dissappointment people have had > with bread machines makes me wonder. I received a KitchenAid a couple > of Christmas' ago and I love it. I mix and knead the bread, but I > take it out to hand knead a little bit because I love the feel of the > dough. Plus, I like the whole loaves without the hole-y loaf from the > paddle. While I feel that bread machines are of the greatest use to people who are unable to bake due to physical limitations, and that they don't produce very good bread, the sort of problem you describe is most likely due to some changes in the yeast you were using. When I used the disgusting little things I found that after I stored yeast for a half year or so, it would slow down. When I increased the amount of yeast I used slightly, the loaves would rise as much as I wanted again. Mike --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n015.9 --------------- From: "Mike Avery" Subject: Whole wheat and low-sugar bread recipes??? Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 14:10:59 -0700 lfc@juno.com wrote in bread-bakers.v103.n014.8: > My family just started on Sugar Buster's a few weeks back and > we're having great results, but I need a really great whole > wheat bread recipe without sugar or at least without much sugar. Yeast doesn't need sugar. It is perfectly capable of converting starches and digesting them. Sugar is also not needed to brown the crust of breads. Or to help the taste of most breads. > This is my latest trial and it was good tasting and textured > but it still didn't rise enough. I have found that dough enhancers, such as gluten, are needed only when you are using a bread machine. Dough will rise if you give it time. I don't use it, and my breads rise just fine. Even the 100% whole wheat flour ones. A key issue to be careful of is the grind of the flour. Graham flour and other coarsely ground whole wheat flours are harder to work with than more finely ground whole wheat flours. Also, many times when bread does not rise after the first rising, the problem is that it wasn't kneaded between rises. My suggestion is don't punch down the bread, deflate it gently. Then knead it for a minute or so before forming the loaf. This exposes the yeast cells to fresh nutrients and helps the rise. If you are trying for whole grain breads, the two best cookbooks I've found are "The Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book" by Laurel Robertson. Her "Loaf for Learning" will redefine for you what whole wheat can do. The other is Beatrice Ojakangas' "Great Whole Grain Breads". It is out of print, as far as I know, but your local library can probably get you a copy, and it's usually available at half.com. Mike --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n015.10 --------------- From: Reggie Dwork Subject: diabetics and flour Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 17:20:38 -0800 QUESTION: Can whole-wheat flour be used instead of white flour in a recipe? ANSWER: Yes. To substitute one for the other, replace every cup of all-purpose white flour with one cup of whole-wheat flour minus one tablespoon. You can make the transition to whole-wheat flour more gradual by first replacing just half of the white flour with the same amount of whole-wheat flour and then, gradually over time, increasing the proportion of whole-wheat flour. Because whole-wheat flour provides more fiber as well as several minerals and natural phytochemicals, the greater the proportion of whole-wheat flour, the better. Also, "white whole-wheat" flour is now available in many supermarkets and specialty stores. This product is nutritionally the same as whole-wheat flour, but the taste and texture of final products are a bit lighter. Source: THE DIABETIC NEWSLETTER http://diabeticnewsletter.com Published every other Monday by The Diabetic Gourmet Magazine Visit The Diabetic Gourmet Magazine at http://diabeticgourmet.com --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n015.11 --------------- From: Wellnessmommy@aol.com Subject: I am new to The list Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:59:05 EST I just got my bread maker out of retirement and I have forgotten how to set the timer. Can anyone refresh my memory about the function. Thank you very much. I look forward to the different ideas that you all will have. Have a great day! --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n015.12 --------------- From: Reggie Dwork Subject: need help Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 16:59:03 -0800 Anyone who has a disability please send me a quick note explaining what your disability is. I need some disabled bread bakers for a project I will be starting. Thank you, Reggie --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n015.13 --------------- From: "Jerry Ulett" Subject: Oven Tile Information Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 17:29:28 -0800 Although I did not have any trouble locating the 98 cent unglazed tile at Home Depot, some of you seem to. I went back and got all the info. The tile is 12 by 12 Natural Mexican Saltillo, UPC Number 094671004344. The Home Depot SCU is 697-095. In the Kent Washsington store the price is 98 cents per tile and they were kind enough to saw one tile for me at no additional cost. Hope this solves the problem for you. Jerry Ulett --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n015.14 --------------- From: "MICHAEL J DIXON" <1dixonmi@msn.com> Subject: Make your home oven into a hearth oven Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 17:53:05 +0000 I found a website recently and have tried out this technique used to transform your regular oven into a hearth brick oven. It made great artisan loafs. I've baked a couple loafs of sourdough, rustic potato bread, and french bread. I experienced a bigger raise from the dough and got a crisp crust. It also makes a great pizza. Just thought I'd share it. Simulation of a More "Complete" Masonry Oven Kenneth Sole Using both a high quality mercury calibration thermometer and a "contact" thermometer of the sort used to measure the surface temperature of a wood stove, Mr. Sole had determined that he can achieve temperatures of about 700 F in a standard home oven set to 500 F. A ring of fire bricks are stood on end on a soapstone baking sheet. An opening is left in the front wide enough for the peel. The oven heats until the oven thermostat tells it that the air within is 500 F. It then shuts off the gas, and start to cool. The air cools much more rapidly than the mass of bricks. Assume that the oven thermostat has a "swing" of 50 F. When the air in the oven drops to 450 F, on comes the gas to heat the oven once again. At that moment, the bricks would be significantly hotter than the air. The gas keeps cycling on and off in this fashion, each time increasing the temperature of the bricks. At the point when the bricks and air reach the temperatures defined above, the dough goes into the oven. Mr. Sole states, "...The results astounded me. I have used today's recipe for years, but the spring this time was perhaps 50% greater than ever before". The Artisan Baker has built and used this simulated masonry chamber in an electric oven, and it works as well in this situation as in Mr. Sole's gas oven. The photo depicts the setup in an electric oven. As can be seen, the weight of the bricks on the rack causes the rack to sag a bit toward the enter. We suggest that prior to using this setup, a call be made to your oven manufacturer to ascertain the estimated weight load that your rack can handle. Lighter refractory brick may be used to obviate this problem, but they are more difficult to obtain. Half thickness brick are available, and would probably work as well if they are not thinner than the spacings on the rack itself. For example, in the oven depicted here, the rack spacings are approximately 1 inch, but the thinner bricks are about 1/16" narrower, and fall through the spacings. This was taken from http://www.theartisan.net/MainCommFrm.htm I also added a second baking stone on top of the bricks held up by a second rack. This, I thought would make a more complete oven. Good luck Mike Dixon --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n015.15 --------------- From: Ed Okie Subject: fictional, fractional or frivolous ounces Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 13:16:42 -0500 Don Bischoff's post last week on the bread-bakers list was unfortunate - approaching a verbal personal "attack" against a prior contributor who critiqued the inclusion of "decimal fractions of an ounce" (in Reinhart's otherwise superb bread book.) Bischoff's war-of-words: "I beg to differ with John's assessment. Whether one-quarter ounce is stated as a fraction (1/4) or a decimal (.25) it means the same thing... It appears that the only thing ridiculous is John's inability to comprehend numerical systems and mathematics.... I can only conclude, that John's allegations are baseless and would best be ignored." Reflective points: The tone of the message puts bread-list manager Reggie Dwork in an uncomfortable editing position: include, edit or delete inflammatory messages? When does "freedom of speech" become "personal attack"? Bischoff's remarks approached the latter. And that's unfortunate. Inflammatory remarks diminish the "willingness-to-help" function of list-readers helping each other in an otherwise excellent forum. It inhibits contributions to the bread-list, or simply asking questions - the subconscious thought: I, too, might get verbally chastised. Equally troubling are tirade-tainted words "ridiculous," "allegations," "baseless," "(John) would best be ignored." It might cause readers to shy away from changing to the better method of weighing ingredients, in place of the error-prone volume-cup method. A key suggestion: Remember the purpose of the bread-list: fellow bread-baking enthusiasts helping each other. Also remember we're getting this excellent service - free - through the diligent work of Reggie and Jeff. I might add: John's depth of knowledge and skills in both bread baking and math is very significant, his worldly advice always worth considering. Likewise, his point stating that ounces expressed as decimals is awkward, causes confusion - is a valid observation. Clarity and simplicity always are key elements to success. It is a reason why gram and percentage measurements often are preferred. Now let's get back to baking bread. In peace. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n015.16 --------------- From: FREDERICKA COHEN Subject: responses to baking stone request Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 13:22:20 -0800 (PST) Once again, the knowledgable and thoughtful members of this group have answered the call. I had more than 23 responses to my request for help in finding baking tiles. Eighteen of them came the first day! I tried to send a personal response to all but it got to be too much. In my corner of Cincinnati where Lowe's and Home Depot (Agent Orange!) are within sight of each other, they have different policies. The six 8 x 8 tiles (77 cents each) I wanted to buy went back because they don't cut. At Lowe's, I found 6 x 6 at 39 cents. A bargain at $2.36 even when I had to pay $1 a cut to turn one tile into three sections. There was wonderful advice about finding a mature sales person, carefully wording the request, trying carpet stores, and carefully examing the stock regardless of what the clerk said. I am 74 and I found a clerk who was old enough to call me "girlie"! Now, please, two more question. I know I must preheat but I have been given times ranging from half and hour to an hour and a half! (Usually I pre-heat for 30 minutes for conventional baking.) How long? Here's the second. Two people have mentioned unpleasant smelling smoke the first few times, including smoke alarms. Has any one had this problem? Because I have an electric oven, I am planning to lay the tiles in a jelly roll pan so I can move them easily. Again my thanks to all of you for your support. Fredericka --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n015.17 --------------- From: FREDERICKA COHEN Subject: active dry yeast Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 13:33:08 -0800 (PST) I have been baking challah with either instant dry yeast or fresh yeast which I buy from the baker. The fresh yeast has been giving me a great product. I had the chance to buy a food service pack of Red Star active dry. I used it as specified in a recipe and result looked like an I Love Lucy episode. I use a 5 quart bucket for rising. Seven cups of flour and two tablespoons of Red Star went from the two quart line to OVER THE TOP in 15-20 minutes! Cutting back to one tbs. slowed it so that it doubled in 25 minutes! Is any one else having this problem with this or any other yeast? Many thanks again, Fredericka --------------- END bread-bakers.v103.n015 --------------- Copyright (c) 1996-2003 Regina Dwork and Jeffrey Dwork All Rights Reserved