Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 00:42:09 -0600 (MDT) -------------- BEGIN bread-bakers.v103.n021 -------------- 001 - "Everett and Pam Rodrigue - new member and announcement 002 - Subject: new member and announcement Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 17:22:58 -0400 [[ Editor's note to all: It's ok to make announcements like this when you join the list or when you have a significant new product, book, etc. It's also ok to have a signature line like this on every post - just keep them short! ]] I sell ptfe baking sheets. I am not joining just to try to do that. I am a baker and use these as well. I love these lists and find them to be a wealth of info and if advertising is offered, a good place to do so. I always ask first. My signature line is below. Is that ok to have? Pam:) www.kapres.com Schmetz sewing machine needles, clear accessories and PTFE baking sheets!!! --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n021.2 --------------- From: Subject: Copyright issues Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 20:13:12 -0400 [[ Editor's note: We cannot and will not take responsibility for the contents of subscriber's posts. Remember to respect the rights of the creator of a recipe. ]] hi all, I love the ongoing chat of bread-digest. I have never seen such passion for baking and such a vibrant dialogue between the home pro, devoted amateur, and working pros - It is an inspiration. It is also so nice seeing 'voices' and people I know - both friends and colleagues. That said: I am unclear about your policy of posting recipes from other websites (like mine, betterbaking.com) and cookbooks like mine and from others. It seems recipes are taken and contributed from other sources - sometimes with a scant credit; sometimes not. This is as hot an issue in publishing and web legalties/courtesy as is fresh sourdough. I know colleagues might feel differently than I BUT....would you mind, as a courtesy and respect to professionals to at least ask before you post our recipes. I know I would so appreciate that copyright respect and frankly, simply as a fellow baker I would appreciate it too. I love to share my recipes, and I do - at my site and between friends - but it would just seem kind of a nice gesture to ask me if I opt to share my own material. I think it is also a good idea to let fellow bread digest readers who clip, email, and consequently post the recipes of others, that some baker creators feel as I do. It is worth the continued good will, mutual respect, and good pr that it would promote. This goes on all over the net - but my feeling is that bread-digest folks are real and full of the same integrity any wholesome loaf offers. I have mentioned this before- and last week I saw one of my recipes and again, Rosemary posted my maple brioche swirl bread. Flattered I am - but surprised. It also puts me in hot water (not tepid, not cold....hot!) with editors who hire me to write a bread feature and then see exclusive recipes I developed for them on these sorts of lists. It discredits me ....and while I cannot control it - it has caused horrific problems with print and online editors and in fact, negates my freelance work. I suppose food writers will not win the day on this but some of you might like to know about how it all works. As I said - perhaps other colleagues feel differently about copyright issues and recipe sharing at this level than I do, but it would not hurt at all -to inform people, on this very special list, BEFORE you publish their recipes in a broadcast email. I say all this in the most gentle, kind way I know. I also know no one thinks of recipes as being 'owned' or having a baker 'parent' but they do. It bothers me as a creating baker and it bothers me as a writer. It is an old battle - protecting intellectual property - one learns to look the other way for the most part but it is one - that no baker worth their salt, or writer worth their words - ever totally walks away from. If you would like - I would be pleased to contribute (knowingly) a recipe a month. For recipes of mine that bread digest people are interested in ....I would gladly assist them via my own site - where those recipes emanate. In the meanwhile, I have bread envy - and counting the remaining days of Passover :-) With warmest wishes, Marcy Goldman Head Baker, Editor editors@betterbaking.com www.BetterBaking.Com --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n021.3 --------------- From: Lorna Campbell Subject: Re: Bagel Disaster Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 10:36:57 +0100 At 5:23 pm -0600 20/4/03, "Jazzbel" wrote: >Subject: Bagel Disaster > >I just tried Peter Reinhart's Bagel Recipe. What a disaster. I must have >done plenty wrong. > >They were nicely shaped when I started, but I think they rose too much in >the fridge, they ended up touching each other and the hole disappeared in >about half of them Jazzbel, Have you ever checked your fridge temperature? I did, and discovered why things weren't keeping as long as I thought they should. It was 12C!! It should be between 4 and 6C on the bottom shelf, which should be the coldest part in the fridge. Yeast grows best at about 20 - 25C, and generally slows to a crawl as it approaches 4C.... Hope that helps next time. Lorna. -- Lorna Campbell Strathbungo Glasgow Scotland --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n021.4 --------------- From: Lorna Campbell Subject: Re: yeast in a science experiment Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 10:44:07 +0100 "Edkins, Suzanne M" wrote: >I was really just interestd in the answer to the question. My niece is >using yeast in a science experiment and this question came up. I said too >much will make the bread rise too much, others says it makes it fall. I >think we are argueing symantics. I think it falls after the dough rises >too much because it gets too heavy or explodes. Help. Any thoughts. OK- the reason bread rises is that the stretchy dough acts like a balloon and traps the gas formed by the yeast. Reasons for bread flopping can include a dough which isn't stretchy enough (so the gas escapes), dough which is too thick (so the balloon can't get blown up) and dough which is too thin (so the gas escapes). To much yeast will have no effect whatsoever as long as you watch your bread, and knock it down and bake it when it is the right shape/size.... If you leave bread too long rising so that the dough has stretched 'thin' the gas can escape when you move the bread into the oven. The 'balloon' deflates and you get a flat loaf. In our house, if we leave bread to rise a little too long, we just get loaves that have puffed up above the loaf tins so that they look like a type of mushroom. They don't flop, though.... If you really leave bread for ages in the first rising, and the knock it back, you can sometimes have a situation where the yeast won't grow any more. This can be because it has given off too many waste products (alcohol, carbon dioxide etc.) into the dough which then slow it down to the extent that you won't get any rising. This can be another cause of flopping, and can be related to using too much yeast. HTH, and that other techies will correct anything I've got wrong. Lorna -- Lorna Campbell Strathbungo Glasgow Scotland --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n021.5 --------------- From: "Joanie Martin" Subject: Multi everything bread Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 12:32:18 -0400 Yesterday, I took out some leftover starter and decided to make "healthy" bread. Just flying blind, I added 1 cup rye flour 1 one cup whole wheat flour 2 cups of bread flour 1/2 cup oatmeal 1 1/4 cup hot water with 1 1/2 Tablespoon honey 1 tablespoon yeast and mixed it all together. Then started hand kneading it. Decided to add some sunflower seeds, and a little kosher salt. The first rise went well, but the second rise didn't get as high as I had hoped. After reading today's messages, I'm wondering if I had put it into a cold oven, would I have gotten a better second rise while it was coming up to the 475 F temperature at which I wanted to bake it. My questions are as follows: Is there a formula as to how much bread flour one needs, or could I use all whole wheat, rye and maybe barley or other flours? I added enough moisture only to get a dough I could knead by hand, but is there a formula for how much water to dry products one needs. What about temperature? Should I have done it at 350, or 500 or was 475 F okay? Actually, I had a piece toasted for breakfast this morning and it was quite good. A meal unto itself, and before toasting the bread had a hard crust and soft interior. I like to experiment, but are there some guidelines I should follow? --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n021.6 --------------- From: "S&R Ash" Subject: Bagel Disaster & Bread machine Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 14:17:53 -0400 I had to laugh about that one as I too have had a time trying to make them at home when I can now buy them at the deli. It is so sad to have them go wrong when you invest all that time to making them at home. My brother in law sent me home with a used bread machine which I will be trying out soon. It is a MISTER LOAF machine. Anyone know about them? He said if that doesn't work he has another one I can bring and try. He daughter gets them at garage sales and pays less than 5 dollars. I am not out anything but time and dough if it doesn't work. I have some health problems and think the machine will be of help to me to at least knead dough, which is getting hard for me to do. Can one knead dough in most machines then go on and make the breads the other way? Sue Ellen --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n021.7 --------------- From: ATroi37324@aol.com Subject: Masa Sovada (Portuguese Sweetbread) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 15:40:46 EDT Made this recipe for my husband this weekend on the Dough cycle of my breadmachine even though it wasn't a bread machine recipe. This is a recipe I had that I must have gotten off the internet many years ago. The original recipe called for 5 1/2 to 6 cups flour but I reduced the recipe to make 2/3 of it so I could use the bread machine. The original recipe called for 1/4 cup water to dissolve the yeast (3 Tbsp when I reduced the recipe) but because I was using the breadmachine I didn't use water but instead just added 3 Tbsp extra milk. The original recipe called for 2 tsp cinnamon but my husband didn't want me to add this because he said the Portuguese bread sold in Boston was just plain sweet bread so I didn't add it. I have several Portuguese Bread recipes that call for lemon and orange zest or cinnamon and I personally think this would make the bread taste better, but I have a picky husband. I didn't read the instructions and thought I hadn't added the correct amound of yeast because it rose very slowly and I had to let it rise quite a long time. Now that I am typing the recipe I notice you have to let it rise for 2 to 3 hours. But in the end, especially after I put it in the oven it rose quite high. It rose beautifully to about 4 1/2 to 5 inches high and was quite good for a plain sweet bread. I will definitely make it again. I decorated the bread with a braid on top (saw this on foodtv the other day) and after it was baked the bread looked beautiful. Everyone was impressed. I also am noticing while typing the recipe that the recipe called for 3 eggs in the dough and 1 for the egg wash but I added 3 eggs to my dough when I reduced it. I have included the original recipe after the reduced in size recipe. Masa Sovada (Portuguese Sweetbread) 2/3 cup + 3 Tbsp warm milk 2/3 cup sugar (next time will add up to an extra 1/4 cup) 5 Tbsp + 1 tsp butter (softened 1/4 tsp salt 3 eggs, room temperature 4 cups bread flour 2 1/4 tsp bread machine yeast Add all the ingredients in the order listed to the bread pan of your bread machine and process on Dough cycle. After about 10 minutes, check the dough consistency and add milk or flour, as necessary, to obtain a smooth round ball. After the Dough cycle is complete, let rise and extra 1 to 2 hours, until doubled in bulk. When dough has doubled, remove from bread pan and roll into a ball and let rest 10 minutes, covered on a buttered board or work surface. After 10 minutes, cut a small piece of dough to use to make a braid to decorate. Roll the remaining dough into a smooth ball and place on a buttered round cake pan, pressing it down with your hands to cover the bottom of the pan. I used an 8 inch springform pan. Take the piece of dough that you cut off and divide into 2 pieces and using your hands roll into long, thin ropes of equal length that will go around the dough about 1 inch from the edge and place them side by side. Pinch one of the ends together and braid the pieces of dough. Take some egg white wash and brush about 1 inch from the edge of the dough and place the braid on top of the egg wash and press down a little and pinch the 2 ends together. Cover and let rise 2 to 3 hours. Brush the dough with egg wash (I brushed the dough with egg yolk mixed with a little cream) and bake at 350 F for 20 to 30 minutes or until golden brown. (I had to cover the top with aluminum foil because the top had browned quite a bit after 20 minutes and the bread was still not done to 195 to 210 F. I was baking at 375 F. Next time I will bake at 350 F and check after 12 to 15 minutes so that it doesn't brown the top so much) . The bread rose and extra 2 inches while in the oven. Cool on wire racks. Original recipe: Masa Sovada (Portuguese Sweetbread) 1/4 cup water (warm for dry yeast, lukewarm for compressed) 1 cup scalded milk 1 cup sugar 2 tsp cinnamon 1/2 cup butter 1/2 tsp salt 5 1/2 to 6 cups all purpose flour 4 eggs 2 pkt yeast (active dry or compressed) Preheat oven to 350 F. Dissolve yeast in warm water. Scald milk and add to sugar, butter and salt. Stir until butter is melted. Mix cinnamon and flour. Add half of the flour to the milk/sugar/butter/salt, and mix until smooth. Beat 3 eggs and add them and the yeast to the mixture. Continue to add remaining flour to make soft dough. Remove it from the bowl and place on floured board. Knead until smooth and satiny (about 15 minutes). Shape into a ball and place in buttered bowl. Cover and let rise until double in size (2 1/2 to 3 hours). Punch risen dough down and divide it in half. Place in two greased pans (8 inches round). Let rise in warm place until doubled in size (1 1/2 to 2 hours). Brush tops of dough with remaining egg (beaten). Bake at 350 F oven for 20 to 30 minutes or until golden brown. Cool on wire racks. Finally, as I menioned to whose who have gotten this recipe already, this bread makes the best toast in the world! Personal opinion, of course. And yes, it did make great toast this morning. Rosemary --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n021.8 --------------- From: Laura Locklin Subject: Lavash cracker topping Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 15:37:01 -0700 (PDT) Mike wanted to know what people use to top lavash crackers. I use Everything Bagel topping from KA. Laura --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n021.9 --------------- From: jhm@webtv.net (Jo helen matheson) Subject: bagels Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 18:57:31 -0500 (CDT) Can you make bagels with out boilng them? If so, would some one post a recipe? Thanks so much. jo helen --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n021.10 --------------- From: "Jenny Hensley" Subject: For "New to this" Lee Anne Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 22:41:41 -0400 Congrats and welcome to bread baking. It's always experimental for me, and you should try the recipes off the list because if something happens, you have instant access to questions and comments. I baked (mostly sweets) when I was younger, and now I'm 40 with two kids who will barely eat store bought bread. I really like mixing my dough in the breadmaker, but it is the easy way out. As far as books, though probably not basic, are "Crust and Crumb" and "Rustic European Breads." I like to experiment with shaped breads... and it is starting to show on my thighs. HOWEVER, when my kids, 10 and 7, are helping with shaping, adding ingredients (when they are in the fraction mode), and experimenting with various foods, what more could you want? I also think King Arthur has a wonderful website, and I've attended two of their sessions here in Columbus over the past few years, so that is a tool for you also. Along with their products, I've made many recipes that they have provided. Enjoy and USE US!! Jenny --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n021.11 --------------- From: Roxanne Rieske Subject: RE: yeast, science experiment Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 20:07:38 -0600 >I was really just interestd in the answer to the question. My niece is >using yeast in a science experiment and this question came up. I said too >much will make the bread rise too much, others says it makes it fall. I >think we are argueing symantics. I think it falls after the dough rises >too much because it gets too heavy or explodes. Help. Any thoughts? This is exactly what happens. The dough overproofs from too much carbon dioxide gas. This weakens the gluten structure of the dough. Therefore it falls. It doesn't really explode, but it collapses. The result is a very dense and heavy bread: think hockypuck. Roxanne --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n021.12 --------------- From: dalepadams@juno.com Subject: About grain mills (for Uma) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 23:02:52 -0400 Hello to all from a lurker. I am very pleased with the postings and truly appreciate the work done by Reggie to keep the recipes and comments coming. I have some information for Uma that I hope is helpful. I recently purchased a grain mill and am offering you my research in a condensed format. If you would like more specific information, feel free to contact me directly. There are several types of grain mills with different characteristics, advantages, and disadvantages. 1. stone grinder - grinds all types of grains using stones that are turned by hand. It grinds well but can get gummed up and glazed from grinding oily seeds. It is heavy and takes up a lot of space. 2. burr grinder - uses metal burrs that look like meshing gears to grind, either hand-cranked or motorized. It gives an adjustable grind from cracked to flour. Several passes through the grinder are needed to make the finest flour. It cannot be used to grind wet items (like pop corn) or hardened grains like pearl barley. 3. micronizer - used in industry to mill pharmaceuticals prior to making pills. Produces a fine powdery flour. It sounds like a vacuum cleaner and is enclosed to minimize dust and noise. Only available in motorized format. Grinding generates heat, which can scorch the grains or flours. So, look for a lower grinding temperature if you are going to get a motorized unit. It is also good to look for a larger hopper so that you can grind several pounds of grain without refilling. If the grinder will be used frequently, its footprint and weight might become an issue. If it will be used to grind dried herbs and spices as well as grains, be sure that it is easily cleaned. And finally, after looking at all models and deciding on a mill, get user comments off the internet or through experiences of people who you know. If you plan on using the mill a lot, get one that is sturdy and not prone to breakdowns and repair. I found the best price on eBay, even though the mills in town were on sale. I purchased new-in-box without bidding. Prices range from $60 to $500. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n021.13 --------------- From: FREDERICKA COHEN Subject: kneading time Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:10:35 -0700 (PDT) I have a question I hope you will answer at your convenience. For the past 8 years I have been using my 1979 KitchenAid stand mixer to knead bread. After 5 sponge cakes never reached the top of the pan and 2 cups of whipping cream became only 2 cups of whipped cream, I realized the power was gone from the higher speeds. Forty-eight hours after I called KitchenAid a new no sales tax, no shipping charge, on sale 5 quart "lifter" was on my kitchen counter. Here's the query. The bread recipes in the instruction book call for a 2 minute mixing time and then into the rising bowl. No kneading time is mentioned. Could this be correct? Has any one done this? This machine is 325 watts and the old one was 300. Many thanks. Fredericka Cohen cohenfs@prodigy.net --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n021.14 --------------- From: Alan Jackson Subject: Re: yeast in a science experiment Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 21:46:59 -0500 It sounds like a good experiment. I would expect that more yeast would cause the bread to rise *faster*, so that for the same amount of time, it would rise too far, and perhaps collapse. But if you baked it earlier, it would be okay, just not as tasty. Be sure she carefully controls for both time and temperature in the experiment. Alan K. Jackson alan@ajackson.org www.ajackson.org --------------- END bread-bakers.v103.n021 --------------- Copyright (c) 1996-2003 Regina Dwork and Jeffrey Dwork All Rights Reserved