Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 01:09:26 -0600 (MDT) -------------- BEGIN bread-bakers.v103.n027 -------------- 001 - DRogers248@aol.com - Re: splitting bread 002 - "Werner Gansz" From: LJWinsk@aol.com >Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 14:59:47 EDT > >problem: > >Frequently my bread ruptures (splits) while it is in the oven. Suggestions >are welcomed. > >Len I am NOT an expert and I was sure someone else would answer you last time ;-). Have you tried putting 2 or 3 slices across the top of the dough before baking? This allows the expansion in the slits you provide, not where ever the bread decides to split. You can use a sharp razor blade or a special tool called a "Lame". Hope this helps. deb* --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n027.2 --------------- From: "Werner Gansz" Subject: Maj Mike's Brotchen Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 08:13:32 -0400 Mike, Your description of the ideal brotchen sounds a lot like the NY City hardrolls that I have been pursuing, unsuccessfully, for several years. Most responders equate NY hardrolls with "Kaiser rolls". I'm not sure that they are the same but nearly every recipe I get on hardrolls is for kaiser rolls. The most referenced recipe is from Joe Ortiz' "The Village Baker". That recipe starts with a 2 hour very wet sponge and includes barley malt syrup, scalded milk, and sugar in the dough recipe. The text includes a detailed discussion on folding the dough to get the traditional petal shape. I have tried this recipe several times with variations. In general, the crumb is always too dense, the crust is very chewy but tough (eating a sandwich made with the roll can be hard work) but the flavor does seem familiar, suggesting that the ingredients are close but there is something wrong with the procedure or proportions. I have been baking European style breads at home for several years and I can usually get results that are representative of the original in a few tries, but the NY Hardrolls are still a mystery. The flavoring and sweetening of the malt syrup seems to be authentic. I'm not sure about the sugar. Certainly it helps to brown the crust but putting the dough in fridge overnight will produce the natural sugars that will do the same thing. (If the Ortiz recipe is derived from a commercial recipe the sugar may be a substitute for time.) Does your recipe include milk? Milk usually softens a crust so I'm surprised that is would be in roll that is prized for its crust. I tried using powdered milk and it made the crust a little less chewy but even softer, almost like a Parker roll. I have not yet gotten the textures right. It seems that the open light crumb these rolls should have would come from using a very wet dough. Unfortunately the wet doughs I've tried lose their "petals" during the final rise under a weighted cookie sheet. I don't know of any other way to get the squashed disk shape that the roll requires. This can't be that hard to do. Hardrolls were available by the millions every morning almost anywhere in the NYC area during the 50's and 60's. Someone out there must have baked them. Good luck in your quest and please keep us posted on your results. Werner --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n027.3 --------------- From: Nifcon@aol.com Subject: Soft Challah - for Steven Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 08:21:18 EDT >Problem is that I can't get my challah to be as soft as I would like it; >I've baked at temperatures ranging from 230-250C or 450-500F (although my >oven can get up to 290C). Your baking temperature is high for Challah, my standard Challah (Reinhart BBA) is baked at 190 C or 180 if I'm baking a large celebration loaf. The crust is crisp when it comes out of the oven but softens later. Try reducing the temperature and upping bake time by about 10% before you start testing for the loaves being cooked. John --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n027.4 --------------- From: ATroi37324@aol.com Subject: Re: Pizza Dough Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 08:51:18 EDT Patti: Next time try letting your dough rest 10 to 15 minutes before trying to roll out. Rosemary --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n027.5 --------------- From: Tarheel_Boy@webtv.net (Skallywagg) Subject: For Lee Anne, Fredericka, and the Marine major... Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 12:10:27 -0400 (EDT) Lee Anne: Here's my recommendation for a great bread machine: Your hands. Unless kneading presents a physical problem for you, there is nothing like the tactile experience of kneading bread dough. Fredericka: Throwing ice cubes in your oven to create steam is an exercise in futility. Think about it: You have a frozen object that must be converted to water and then to steam. The entire operation reduces the temperature of your oven and does nothing for your bread. I think the best way for a home baker to create a little steam is to spray the loaves, put them in the oven, and quickly spray the oven. That's it and you won't damage your lovely complexion. ;- As for the Marine major, tell your wife she is not alone in thinking you have gone off the deep end. Because of my obsession with bread, my wife thinks the same of me. Bob the Tarheel Baker who was a Marine sergeant during the Korean War. Semper Fi! --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n027.6 --------------- From: "carlton" Subject: rustic whole wheat bread Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 06:37:01 -0700 My wife prefers a rustic whole wheat bread which contains what she calls "crunchies" so I have been trying different combinations of cracked wheat, bulgar, Kashi hot cereal, etc. For quite a while I have added one cup of Bob's 5-grain cereal to the sponge, made the night before making the bread, but yesterday I also added a cup of Bob's 8 grain cereal to the mixture in the morning when making the final dough. It not only added nice "crunchies" but added a nice flavor to the final bread. I should add that the recipe I am using produces three 1 lb 9 oz loaves plus six 1 1/2 oz. sandwuch buns. Note: using the sponge method I am able to obtain an excellent rise using just 1/2 tsp yeast in the sponge and 1 1/2 tsp in the final dough - both measurements are heaping. If I can keep the wife happy the rest of the world goes very well. Dick Carlton, Brokings, OR --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n027.7 --------------- From: "Marti Rosalin" Subject: Pizza Dough Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 11:29:43 -0700 Jim & Patti Carini wrote they had problem rolling out pizza dough. I have used Laura Brody's Dough Relaxer with great success, but if you don't have that just let the dough rest for about 2 minutes and then try again. Just wish I could learn how to "spin" the dough like they did where I grew up in New Jersey! Keep sticking my knuckles through it! Marti Rosalin --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n027.8 --------------- From: Gonzo White Subject: Pumpernickel Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 13:59:19 -0500 Jim Neuman asked for a recipe for Pumpernickel. This is my favorite. Pumpernickel is normally made with a sour dough, this recipe makes its own sour. It takes two days but you don't have to keep a sour dough in the fridge. This recipe is for ABM's but I am sure you could make it by hand if you so desired. Our Favorite ABM Recipes from www.ClickOnCuernavaca.com Quick Sour Pumpernickel This is one of my favorite recipes. You can either make rolls or just leave the dough in the ABM to make a loaf of bread. It must be started the night before. This gives you the real sourdough flavor without all the trouble of keeping a pumpernickel sourdough starter. Starter: 1 1/2 cups Milk 2 cups Rye Flour 2 Tbs Gluten 2 tsp yeast Add the above ingredients to the ABM and let knead for about 10 minutes. Reset the machine (turn it off) and leave the pan in the machine overnight or 6-8 hours. 1/4 cup Coffee 2 Tbls Vegetable oil 1/4 cup Molasses 1/4 cup Sugar 2 Tbls Unsweetened Coco 1/2 tsp Salt 2 tsp Caraway or Fennel seed 1 cup Whole wheat flour 2 Tbs Gluten (Optional) 1 1/3 cup Bread Flour 1/4 cup Raisins (optional) 1 teaspoon Black Food Color (Optional) Add remaining ingredients and start machine as usual. If making the loaf in the Machine use the specialty bread setting and add the raisins at the beep. (If you add them to early they get ground up) You can usually find the gluten, rye flour, black pumpernickel color and whole wheat flour in a health food store or you can buy it mail order from King Arthur Flour. If you are going to make rolls use the dough setting. The raisins are very good in the rolls. Using the dough setting on my Hitachi I add them at the 1:18 mark. When the dough is ready, roll out into a flat square. Form into balls the size of a large Lemon. Press down and cover (I put 12 into a 13x9 pan and the rest in a cake pan. Let rise until doubled (1 hour) then cook 20 minutes at 350 F. Makes about 15 rolls. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n027.9 --------------- From: lfc@juno.com Subject: To Mike about elasticity Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 23:24:16 -0500 Mike wrote: >Well, so many of you have responded to my question about 'elastic vs. >crumbly bread' that I feel I must send out a collective thank you note. Your responses can be edited into the following: 1. more water 2. use bread flour 3. knead enough 4. double raise the dough I am currently trying all these as I make new bread. Just a FYI that has worked for me. I began adding more vital wheat gluten to my mix. I use all fresh ground whole wheat flour. In a two loaf recipe I use 3/4 cup of the gluten. I also knead it a good long time, first in my kitchenaid and then by hand. I love to knead. I used to think it was the egg I added to my recipe that made it soft. And I think it did. But now I use a milk, butter, ww flour, sweetner (I'm using agave nectar), salt and gluten recipe and it is softer and tastier than ever. I can't remember if I've posted my recipe, but .... 2 1/2 cups milk 1/2 stick butter 2 T agave (or honey) Microwave or heat in pan until melted and warm. Cool to room temp (baby bottle warm to your wrist). Pour in mixing bowl. Add: 3 cups whole wheat flour 3 1/2 tsp. Yeast 3/4 cup vital wheat gluten (don't try it without it) Mix and let it proof the yeast for 5 or 10 minutes. While it is proofing, turn on oven to 200 F for 5 minutes to just warm it. Turn off oven and leave it closed. Add: 1 1/2 tsp salt and more flour 1/2 cup at a time until it cleans the bowl and is just a little sticky, but not gooey. Knead at least 10 minutes until smooth and feels good! I love this part. Check oven to make sure it's comfortably warm. Place covered bowl in oven to rise doubled in bulk. Remove. Knead at least 5 minutes. Divide in two and shape into loaves. Place in greased bread pans and cover. Back into warm oven to rise double or just over the edge of the pan. Don't let it rise too much. Take out of oven and spray with oil. Preheat oven to 350 F. Bake 40 minutes, more or less until brown on bottom and sounds hollow when tapped. Rub butter on top of loaves, if desired. Cut off the end and put some all-fruit on it…mmmm! --------------- END bread-bakers.v103.n027 --------------- Copyright (c) 1996-2003 Regina Dwork and Jeffrey Dwork All Rights Reserved