Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 23:55:08 -0600 (MDT) -------------- BEGIN bread-bakers.v103.n039 -------------- 001 - Nifcon@aol.com - Re: scales - for Raymond Kenyon 002 - "Chris Dalrymple" Subject: RE: conversion chart Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 08:26:53 -0500 Fredericka asked for a link to a conversion chart. This site has an easy online calculator: http://www.megaconverter.com/. It will calculate all sorts of things, even weights in space (for some reason I find it highly amusing to know how much my dogs weigh on Mars :-) --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n039.3 --------------- From: Ark1411@aol.com Subject: whole grain foccacia request Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 10:38:33 EDT Does anyone know of a good foccacia recipe using whole grain in place of the white flour. I had a request from my therapist, who is vegetarian and does not eat white flour. I can not locate anything in my files. Your help would be appreciated. Adele --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n039.4 --------------- From: Ark1411@aol.com Subject: Re: Bone Idle Lazy Club Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 10:56:20 EDT Ed, You continually mention this Bone Idle Lazy Club. Could you explain further, as to what it is, where, etc. Curious, Adele --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n039.5 --------------- From: "Mike Avery" Subject: Re: Acidity problems Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 11:18:24 -0600 "Gabriel Filloy" wrote: >I have been able to create the sourdough bread I wanted. Using a starter >made initially from grapes my bread is great, the only thing I have not >been able to control is the acidity of the bread. > >Can someone help me on how to control the acidity? Warning - this is gonna be long, and the bone lazy bakers won't like it. As with sex, money, and weight, sourdough problems come in two flavors, too much and too little. In several cases, the correct response to "too much" is "that's a problem?" To start with, you should have eaten the grapes. You would have appreciated them more than the sourdough culture. Grapes, cabbage, and other flora and fauna are not needed to start a good culture. All you need is wheat and/or rye flour and water. Adding the other flora or fauna or baker's yeast gives you a quick start, but it's the wrong start. Your culture won't mature until the wrong yeasts from these things die off and are replaced by yeasts that can do well in a sourdough culture. Yes, you can make a good starter using grapes. But you would have had a good starter several weeks sooner if you'd not used the grapes. The first thing to work on is control of your starter. It's the foundation of all that follows. You need to have a consistent starter to work with. Not lively one time, lethargic another. While most taste comes from the fermenation/rising of the bread and not the starter, having the starter in a consistent state helps (is all but essential) to get consistent results. I prefer to have an active starter that is lively and has a fruity smell more than a lethargic sour one. A soured starter is past it's prime and won't give you much rise. The keys here are consistent feeding and handling, and if you refrigerate your starter handling it consistently after you get it out of the fridge. I prefer to feed it three times (or more), eight hours apart, tripling the volume with each feeding, until the starter is very active. If the starter won't double (or better) in size after being fed, how's it supposed to raise your bread? There are two aspects here, one is how you handle your starter, the other is how you handle your dough. I feel that the goal of handling your starter is to get a good crop of healthy, active yeast and bacteria in the culture of the right kind. This prepares the way for the handling of the dough. Most of the taste and character of the bread comes from the handling of the dough. You can blow it if you mishandle the starter, but the quality of the bread should come from the dough and it's handling. All of which is to say, you needn't (and shouldn't) use a sour starter to make a sour bread.... other things will suffer. The characteristic sourdough taste comes from lactobacillus bacteria, a kind of "friendly" bacteria. There are two major classes of starters, ones with homofermentative or heterofermentative lactobacillus bacteria dominating them. Homofermentative starters produce primarily lactic acid which is mild in taste and which doesn't seem very acidic to the taste. This is preferred by German bakers who need to acidify rye breads to get them to come out right and want the improved handling they get from sourdough, but whose customers don't like sour breads. Heterofermentative starters produce lots of lactic acid but also produce acetic acid. These starters give more "bite" to the bread. This is prized for San Francisco sourdough bread. In most stable sourdough cultures, one strain of yeast and one strain of bacteria dominate the starter by several orders of magnitude. However, since most of us don't have pure cultures, there are other yeast and bacteria present. There is some debate as to whether the hetereofermentative and homofermentative lactobacillus are different sub-species of lactobacillus that produce the different outcomes, or if it's a matter of handling. Similarly, the same person can practice running and become a track star, or can sit in front of the TV and become a couch potato. Since most of us don't have pure cultures, changing the handling conditions can change many cultures from heterofermentative to homofermentative or vice versa. Is this because the bacteria changed their behavior, or because the minority bacteria is now treated better than the majority bacteria and took over the culture? The matter is still being debated, but practically spreaking, it really doesn't matter much to the home baker. All you really need to know is that you can often change the behavior of your starter by the way you feed it. Whichever way this works, it helps explain some of the comments about, "my starter has changed". Usually this means you changed how you handle it, and it responded. A thicker starter, around 50 to 60% hydration, will tend to favor heterofermentative bacteria. Thinner starters, around 100% hydration, tend to favor homofermentative bacteria. So, thick = sour, thin = mild. The kind of flour you use has a tremendous impact on your results. Flours higher in ash produce breads with more sour tastes. Ash is a measure of the mineral content of flour. Ash is usually found in the bran of flours. Since white flours have less bran than whole grain flours, they also have less ash. You can usually see the ash levels of flours on the sack. Many people think of ash as waste, or unwanted. The use of the term ash is an unfortunate one. The mineral content of flour is (crudely) determined by burning the flour. (The same is done with dog food and other products.) The carbohydrates, protein and fat are burned off. The water evaporates. What is left is ash. It's not that the flour (or dog food) has ash in it, it's that it can be burned to ash. The amount of ash is an indicator of the mineral content of the flour. Some people mix whole wheat and white flour together to get more taste. (I usually mix 1 part of whole wheat to three parts of unbleached all-purpose flour by weight.) More ash = more sour. Less ash = less sour. The next thing that helps control acidity is the temperature. Heterofermentative bacteria tend to prefer cooler temperatures, while homofermentative bacteria prefer warmer ones. Sourdough starters are fairly active from about 50F to about 90F. On the bottom of the web page at I have a chart showing the time to double for a common sourdough yeast and lactobacillus bacteria over a wide temperature range. There is some disagreement, but I feel when sourdough is refrigerated it largely stops working. The cooling is not instantaneous, so the inside of the bread rises longer than the outside, but when you cool something to the 30- something F level, the flour is hydrating, but the yeast and bacteria are asleep. Much beyond 90F, you start getting off flavors. In general, cooler temperatures tend to favor the heterofermentative bacteria, higher temperatures tend to favor the homofermentative bacteria. Of course, the temperature also influences the length of time of the rise. When things get warmer, up to a point, the yeast and bacteria work faster. When things get cooler, the critters work more slowly. Or, cooler = more sour and slower, warmer = more mild and faster. German bakers tend to rise their breads in the mid 90's. San Francisco Sourdough Bread is risen at San Francisco room temperatures. This part is pretty important - if you pull your starter out of the fridge and refresh it with pure white flour and keep it at 90F, it will take off pretty fast, but the homofermentative bacteria will take over the culture, leading to milder bread. Feeding more bran and using a lower temperature will take longer to get the starter reactivated, but this will help the heterofermentative bacteria. This will strongly affect the bread you make. The length of the rise also plays a role in the taste. Longer rises mean more sour taste. Temperature has it's own influences here, so another way to control the speed of the rise is to change the amount of starter used. Using 4 cups of starter will tend to make a milder bread quickly, while using 1/2 cup of starter will tend to make a more acidic bread more slowly. Letting the dough rise too long, called overproofing, will tend to produce a very fragile dough that will collapse if you slash it or jostle it. Some people like overproofed bread, and they tend to slash the dough before they let it rise. I think those are the key factors.... using this information and keeping your goals in mind should help you correct your acidity problems, whether you are looking for milder or more acidic bread. Good luck, Mike -- Mike Avery MAvery@mail.otherwhen.com --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n039.6 --------------- From: "Mike Avery" Subject: Re: Tips & Tricks Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 11:49:20 -0600 Ed Okie frothed endlessly: >"Slash dough tops, or not to slash" is an interesting question. It popped >up recently in another website forum. Responses were, as one might expect, >passionate (the subject ranks right up there with yeast "type" and baking >stones). One theme prevailed: the slash-opening allows dough to rise >better in the oven, interior dough has room to expanded. Truth is: the >slash doesn't make a bit of difference. Side-by-side tests in my kitchen >consistently show "same as" or "rise higher -without- a slash." Esthetics >and tradition is the reason for slashing. Your tummy won't experience a >bit of difference. Your tummy won't experience a bit of difference if you bake the dough or not. Esthetics IS important. Many people do the right thing without understanding why. However, the right thing can be dependent on many other factors, all of which are always obvious. The key reason I slash is to control oven spring. Some breads will "spring" in the oven and greatly increase their size. This is more true of underproofed breads and much less true of overproofed breads. If you bake an underproofed loaf, it will often tear and become misshapen when extreme oven spring hits it. This can make it harder to toast. Slashing the loaf gives the loaf a prefered stretch path, and helps you control the shape of the final loaf. With fully proofed doughs this isn't a real issue. With overproofed doughs, slashing can cause the loaf to collapse. With regards to dried out dough surfaces, it's so easy to avoid having them, it shouldn't be an issue. Steaming helps crust formation. >Same arena, question variation: "Which (additive) should I use (dough >improvers, enhancers, additives and various "secret" ingredients). Shared >wisdom: toss 'em all in the trash. Don't buy 'em in the first place. Learn >to work and understand basic ingredients, the techniques of working with >four basic elements: flour, water, yeast and salt. The variations possible >are enormous. Most enhancers and additives are often a short-trip to >nowhere, band-aids to underlying problems Here we agree, with reservations. Dough improvers and enhancers are a crutch, and a baker is better off learning how to bake with the ingredients they have. You can make good bread with just about any flour in the grocery store, you can compensate for that odd batch of flour. (It helps to buy more than 5 pound sacks, so you aren't always changing flours with each recipe. The reservation? If you use a bread machine, you are at the mercy of the person who programmed the bread machine. When you push the start button, XX minutes later, the machine WILL bake your bread (unless you have a power failure). You need to be sure that your bread will be fully risen at that point in time. As I understand it, dough enhancers were first developed to allow commercial bakeries (like Sunshine, Rainbo, Mrs. Baird's, and Iron Kids) to bake in tight time constraints and consistently. Home bread machines put you in the same position as the commercial baker. If you are having problems with a bread machine, start by not using the "bread in an hour" method, then by getting any of the "Bread Machine Magic" books by Lois Conway et al and following their advice. If you still have problems, you might consider using dough enhancers. >Weighing ingredients is by far the best method of constructing bread. >Though the expense of a scale ($40-60) may seem frivolous - once used, >you'll never go back to the "volume-cup" method. After you use a scale, >"How did I ever get along without it?" will cross your lips. Beyond the >accuracy issue (consistency), simplicity and less things to clean are >extra but significant benefits... true Bone-Idle-Lazy goals in life. People made good bread long before there was consistent flour or scales. They make it easier, but with care you can make good bread with any measuring system. This is clearly in the "it's a poor workman who blames his tools - but a master violinist sounds better with a stradavarius" category. All the good bakers I know measure carefully. And then they feel the dough to make sure it feels right. And adjust accordingly. They know what the dough should feel like to make the bread they want to make. And the feel of the dough is their goal in dough making. Not using 4 cups of flour. Or a pound of flour. Or 1/2 kilgram of flour. Or whatever arbitary measurement the recipe uses. I usually suggest people take a baking class to learn what dough should feel like.... >Other tradition-changing methods: I never oil my mixing bowl for rising >dough. After the mix period, the dough stays in the bowl for whatever rise >(ferment) time required. Plastic wrap covers the bowl. The "Stretch-Tite" >(yellow box) brand is the best I've come across, less than $3 for 250 >feet; clings better than any other brand, and is heavy duty in thickness. >Highly recommended. I like Saran Wrap's QuickCovers better. They are like hair covers. They are reuseable. For months and months. Making them cheaper in use than even the cheapest cling-wrap. >Do BIL members weigh token amounts such as yeast and salt? No. Scales >aren't accurate in those low weight ranges (1 gram of yeast as an example). That's true - if you buy cheap scales. Using mixed methods gets you back to the position of having to convert measurements when you scale. Lessee... that's 2 tsp per batch.... and if I'm making 8 batches, that's 16 tsp. Which is 5 tbsp and 1 tsp. Or 1/4 cup, 1 tbsp, and 1 tsp. Or... is it? >Baking tip: books and magazines often specify "unsalted butter." Hint from >the BIL crew: using unsalted butter isn't important. Doesn't make a bit of >difference in your breads, salted or unsalted butter. It's >laboratory-technical gibberish, in relative terms a microscopic measurement. This actually is important, though not for the reasons you might think. In cakes and sweets, the matter is more important than breads, as so little salt is used in them to start with. In breads, well, while the salt isn't so important, the quality of the butter is. When a creamery makes butter, the unsalted butter is made to higher standards because unsalted butter has to rely on the quality of the cream for it's taste. Salt covers a multitude of freshness sins, handling problems, and cream with off-tastes. As a result, unsalted butter is a better butter. If you can't taste the difference, that's OK, but that doesn't mean the difference doesn't exist. Mike -- Mike Avery MAvery@mail.otherwhen.com --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n039.7 --------------- From: "Ken Vaughan" Subject: Bread and camping Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 12:33:37 -0800 I chuckled at the message about bread and camping. Having been a scountmaster on and off over the last 40 years I have worked through a lot of things that worked and did not work. Here are some points of experiential learning. Most camping books and basic boy scout training use quick breads -- usually bisquit mix. Yeast bread works well, but needs advance planning. 2 gallon zip lock bags work well for kneading from the outside with grubby boy hands. An aluminum dutch oven works well on all but backpack situations. A green alder, willow, ash or similar stick is the work tool. Look for a 3/8 to 1/2 inch diameter or even a little thicker. Peel and use as a roasting stick. Sharpen in a chisel shape for a flipping stock for fry bread. Frybread in the bottom of the dutch oven is very popular. 1/4 inch of oil is all that is needed and the flipping stick turns the pieces. Two flipping sticks take the pieces out. Roasting on a flat rock in the fire is basic and good. Roasting bread on a flat rock and grubby boys messing with a fire is not a good combination. Baking bread in a dutch oven is good - especially sweet breads such as monkey breads or similar. Letting bread rise in the 2 gallon ziplock in a sleeping bag over night works. Be sure to be careful who gets picked as the dough warmer. Steamed buns with jam or PB&J filling is popular and does not require much effort. I like a forked stick for roasting bread on a stick. Peel the bark and wrap the bread around the fork. Dough string smaller than a mans little finger is needed. Thicker pieces take a longer time to cook and are hard to get correct. Want more, use a rock in the fire. Here, in Southeast Alaska, wrap pieces of dough in skunk cabbage leaves and roast on the edge of the fire. Pizza in the dutch oven, or any variant is very popular with boys. Two large dutch ovens will keep up with a patrol, and 3 might be better. Then one is used to make cobbler for dessert. The bottom of a canoe make a good kneading table for bread. It gets washed the next day and is ready to use again when you make camp. Practice many times in the backyard before doing a demonstration of skills. Best wishes and happy camping Ken Vaughan in Rainy Southeast Alaska --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n039.8 --------------- From: "Pat Minzes" Subject: Bishop's Bread Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 21:46:29 -0500 Was an exhibitor last weekend at a show in Mt. Pleasant, Iowa. The lady next to me I called the "nut lady" .. she and her husband selling roasted, candied nuts. I was so excited about my purchase of a "new" cookbook from the Mt. Pleasant, Iowa Old Threshers Reunion .. but SHE was "still" looking for a bread recipe from years ago .. and I thought perhaps you all could be of help, She is looking for a recipe that included yeast . she called it Bishop's bread. I've found some recipes, but none that looked right. Anyone have an idea??? Thanks for ANY info .. Pat --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n039.9 --------------- From: Makrma4@aol.com Subject: Re: pain de mie Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 23:01:39 EDT Frederika, There is a pretty decent pain de mie recipe on the King Arthur website. I have their pain de mie pan and have used their recipe (which is sized to fit their pan). I do have a nice sandwich/toast bread recipe which I adapted from a recipe called Anne's Egg Twist Bread which was published in an edition of the Penzey's catalog ( for reference). I have not tried it in my pullman pan but I think it would work very well. It makes a lovely high loaf in a 9 x 5 bread pan. (All measures American) For bread machine: 1 cup warm water (approx. 120F) 2 T sugar 2 1/2 tsp salt 2 T butter 2 eggs 3 3/4 cup flour (I'm using a locally milled all-purpose) 2 t. active dry yeast* Place ingredients in bread machine in above order. Set machine for dough. When cycle is complete, remove dough to greased counter and shape into loaf. Let rise, covered with plastic wrap, 45 minutes to 1 hour or until dough is even with top of pan or slightly (suit your own preference) higher. Bake at 375 F for 30-35 minutes or until loaf sounds hollow when tapped or the crust is the color you want, etc. I bake this in the pan on a stone and the oven spring is fabulous. *Yeast: 2 t. is a bit excessive to me but it seems to work here. Again, suit your own preference. Best of luck! Yvonne --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n039.10 --------------- From: Makrma4@aol.com Subject: "moral" dilemma Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 23:06:04 EDT Thank you to all who replied! I'll be heading to the local Sam's to see if they have the KA. Thanks to Ivan in Wichita (sorry, if you replied to me personally it probably bounced, I have a new address now) for giving me a little vindication as far as local flour is concerned. I, too, like the Hudson Cream. Yvonne (whose Dilemma has been shoo'ed back into its cave.) --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n039.11 --------------- From: lfc@juno.com Subject: To Mike about the Windowpane advice -- Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 13:51:05 -0500 Thanks so much for the advice. I purchased a used copy of Breads from Laurel's Kitchen about a month ago and I WILL use her Loaf for Learning recipe, as you suggested. I am anxious to improve my loaves. You mentioned "I have four probable reasons you can't produce a windowpane. 1. Low quality flour. Try another, less coarse, flour." Question: I grind my own flour and it is a little coarse. I love the flour and my mill doesn't grind any finer. Would that mean that it would be impossible to get it kneaded well enough for 'windowpanes'? As for the flour amount and kneading time. I let it remain a little sticky and don't add more flour than a sprinkle on my work surface. I knead in my kitchenade for 6 or 8 minutes and then by hand for another 10 minutes for a 2-loaf recipe. Any other suggestions? I have been getting tasty loaves, but wish they would be a little softer. My recipe is: 2 1/2 cups milk 1/2 stick butter 2 T agave (or honey) Microwave until melted and warm. Pour in mixing bowl. Add: 3 cups whole wheat flour 3 1/2 tsp. Yeast 1/2 cup vital wheat gluten (don't try it without it)] Mix and let it proof the yeast for 5 or 10 minutes Add: 1 egg 1 1/2 tsp salt more flour 1/2 cup at a time until it cleans the bowl and is just a little sticky, but not gooey. I knead 6 to 8 min. in Kitchenaid, then at least 10 minutes by hand until smooth and feels good. Place in covered bowl to rise until at least doubled in bulk. Gently deflate, reshape into a ball, cover to rise again. Divide in two and shape into loaves. Place in greased bread pans and cover. Let rise double or just over the edge of the pan. Spray top with oil. Bake at 350 F until brown on bottom. Thanks for any suggestions any of you may have. I just love reading what ya'll share and trying it all out. Linda --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n039.12 --------------- From: Larry Klevans Subject: Scales for baking Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 18:09:09 -0400 In response to the question about scales, I am currently using a Salter Model No. 4001 electronic scale. It can respond in oz. or grams. It can go up to 5 lbs. With a built in tare, you can add all of the ingredients, except the flour to the ABM pan, tare the pan and weigh the flour starting at 0.0. I use 5 oz. per cup of bread flour. I do not know what it costs since it was as gift from myson. Larry from Maryland --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n039.13 --------------- From: "C. B." Subject: Re: Campfire bread baking? Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 13:52:27 +0100 I took packets of dry yeast instead of baking-powder. And sun- warmed water. :-) When we came back to camp after a day hiking, I'd make the dough, then put it in a nice warm, draft-free place (we had a car, and the back window was usually just right. When the fire was at the cooking stage (glowing coals, and lots of them) the dough had risen enough and I'd roll thin strands around branches (of non-poisonous trees....) to bake at a distance from the coals. Resting the stick on the ground between some rocks, and leaning (still the stick) against the fire-grill, forked stick or a big rock worked well. When done on the outside, test the inside - if still a bit raw poke the stick through the side of the bread and place bread like a chimney over the heat. Turn once. A flat, smooth rock will work as a griddle, if placed on the fire-grill, or directly on the coals, so if you can flatten the dough enough, you can make chapati-like bread which is also very good and cooks fast. Cabe. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n039.14 --------------- From: "Shauna S. Roberts" Subject: Re: scale Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 11:41:04 -0500 I've been very happy with my Soehnle. It can measure in both grams and pounds/ounces. Its maximum weight is 4 lb 6 oz or 2000 g. I don't know the model number, but it is a flat white plastic platform on thin white plastic base. -- Shauna S. Roberts http://www.nasw.org/users/ShaunaRoberts/ --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n039.15 --------------- From: Farnes_Quinn Subject: Sourdough and Possibly a Bedpan? Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:42:32 -0700 Gabriel, I've been experimenting with sourdough off and on for several years. I started by using packaged starters, then began using food-grade acetic, lactic and fumaric acids like the bread machine mixes (and supermarket sourdough _read the label_) use, and am currently maintaining a sponge starter made from yeast, flour and water in the refrigerator and using that to inoculate the dough. I bake sourdough the same way you do, except my starter was made from commercial baker's yeast and developed its sourness as it aged. Here's how I make sourdough bread: I dump about a cup of starter in the bread machine bowl, which mixes and kneads better and faster than I can, add about two cups (~300 g) of bread flour, about 1 tablespoon (15 g) of salt, and mix in enough water to make a firm dough. After the flour has hydrated, I add about 2 tablespoons of olive oil and continue mixing. All measurements are very approximate. It is hard to screw this up. After mixing/kneading and about 1 hour rise time, I dump the dough into an oiled plastic bowl with a tight-fitting lid, and place it in the refrigerator until I get home from work the next day. Then I take the bowl out, let it warm on the counter, and dump the dough into a bread pan. It usually needs to rise for 3 to 4 hours at room temperature before baking. If I want to make a round loaf on the baking stone I usually knead in more flour by hand because by this time the dough is pretty slack and somewhat sticky. I then put the pan in a cold oven, set the temperature to 350 F (176 C) and bake for an hour. If I want more sourness, I just punch the dough down and allow it to rise again. There is a point, however, at which the yeast, swimming in their own waste, become incapable of producing enough gas to rise satisfactorily, at which time I've managed to save the dough by kneading in more flour and adding a little baker's yeast. When I started making bread this way, I was pleased with the increasing sourness I was achieving, but most striking was the chewy texture and crispy crust the bread developed. I thought one needed a fancy steam-injected oven to get that kind of texture. I suspect that if one added sugar to the recipe, instead of allowing the bugs to convert starch into sugar, the texture would be more WonderBread-ish. I'm still playing around with technique, however I've found that sourness is related to the amount of starter used, and its age, as well as the time the dough sits prior to baking, and the temperature of the dough. To make a more sour bread, use more starter, or use older starter, or allow the dough to stand longer before baking, or place the dough in a warmer place, or do any combination of the above. The buffering capacity of the flour you use will also affect the sourness, and the ease with which starch is converted to sugars by enzyme activity varies, so using different flours will achieve different results. Like Ed, of B-I-L fame, opined earlier with regard to another aspect of bread baking, I'm surprised at how much bad information has been published, propagated and otherwise promulaged about sourdough over the years, and how nobody has challenged the claims made, save for some food chemistry types in academic settings, one of whose doctoral dissertation on sourdough bread microbiology I was fortunate to stumble across some time ago. On another matter, Fredericka's mysterious half-moon shaped lidded pan sounds very much like one of those pans they use in the hospital. If you choose to bake in it, I don't think it would be a good idea to tell your guests what kind of pan you used! ;-) Quinn --------------- END bread-bakers.v103.n039 --------------- -------------- BEGIN bread-bakers.v103.n040 -------------- 001 - "Ralph Wooten" Subject: In regards to Bone Lazy's suggestion for welders gloves Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 22:06:34 -0500 In regards to Bone Lazy's suggestion for purchasing welders gloves, I would add that's a great idea. They're not foolproof however. I use them for grilling and barbecuing and I find that they don't heat up as easily, but once heated, they take longer to cool down. Just a hint. -Singed Fingers. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n040.2 --------------- From: Cathy Sears Subject: Tibetan Barley Bread recipe Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 08:46:47 -0400 This is the recipe from the Tassajara Bread Book by Edward Espe Brown (Shambala Publications, Berkeley, 1970). 2 cups barley flour 4 cups whole wheat flour 1/2 cup millet meal (or roasted sunflower or sesame seeds) 1 1/2 teaspoons salt 2 tablespoons sesame oil 2 tablespoons corn oil 3 1/2 cups boiling water Pan roast the barley flour in 1 tablespoon of sesame oil until darkened. Mix flours with salt. Add oil, rubbing flour between hands until oily. Add boiling water, using spoon to mix until dough begins to form, then mixing with hands, keeping them cool by dipping in cold water. Mix until earlobe (sic) consistency. Knead until smooth. Place in oiled pans. Cut tops lengthwise. Proof 2-6 hours or overnight. Bake at 450F for 20 minutes on the middle shelf, then 400F for 40 minutes on the top shelf. Crust will be tough but inside tender. I wasn't sure what size pans to use. I've tried this once, using a half a cup of roasted sesame seeds instead of the millet meal. As I expected, the bread did not rise at all and the texture was very dense and solid. The flavor was terrific though, I think mainly because of the roasted barley flour. Should I add some yeast to make the texture lighter, and if so how much? Thanks, Cathy --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n040.3 --------------- From: "Mike Avery" Subject: Re: Tips and Tricks Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 09:52:07 -0600 Ed Okie wrote: >Other tradition-changing methods: I never oil my mixing bowl for rising >dough. After the mix period, the dough stays in the bowl for whatever rise >(ferment) time required. Plastic wrap covers the bowl. The "Stretch-Tite" >(yellow box) brand is the best I've come across, less than $3 for 250 >feet; clings better than any other brand, and is heavy duty in thickness. >Highly recommended. I had to try this, and found that I'm better off oiling my bowl. Why? The dough sticks a lot less if you oil it. With a fragile dough, you can often get the dough out intact. With an un-oiled bowl, the dough sticks and you'll have the joy of prying the dough out and deflating it. This matters more for some breads than others, of course. And your mileage may vary. Mike -- Mike Avery MAvery@mail.otherwhen.com --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n040.4 --------------- From: Nifcon@aol.com Subject: Jottings Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 17:09:58 EDT Hi all Ed's post reminded me that ideas and techniques which we, as individuals, take for granted , may be of use, interest or both to other bakers. So here's a few random items. Do you have a dough scraper (US bench knife)? If not, get some money, we're talking $5 - 10 max unless you want to be flash, go to your local kitchen shop and buy one. Go to the shop. Go direct to the shop. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. Just buy a scraper. You will bless the day you listened to Uncle John. Why bother with bowls for mixing and rising your main doughs? Most of my bread these days (haven't mentioned this to you Ed) is mixed by just dumping the dry ingredients onto the counter, making a well in the middle, adding the liquid and any preferment and mixing gradually, then kneading, folding and stretching, rising, all on the counter. Hydrations up to 90%. Plastic, food grade, trays, mine are 18" X 12" with a sloping rim, are extremely useful if you have a small kitchen, such as mine, and need work space while bread is rising and therefore can't leave it on the counter. You can (and I often do) take a dough from first mix to readiness for final shape and proof on the tray and this technique really comes into it's own when you have to make multiple breads or comparison batches for testing. The trays are, effectively, small, portable counters. Which fit in a white bin bag for ideal rising conditions. Don't bother with spritzing the oven, it's a total waste of time, effort and water. Boiling water into a roasting pan for a blast of steam at the start of baking is a technique I still think gives rustic bread the best visual finish but spritzing is an old wives tale from a particularly stupid old wife. If you don't like the taste of flour that is sometimes apparent in high hydration doughs that have been shaped or kneaded with flour as the release agent, you can stretch and fold and rise using oil to stop the dough sticking. When mixing doughs containing oil, particularly if the oil content goes much over 5%, Focaccia and Ciabatta the obvious examples, the oil sometimes forms oil-soaked nodules of flour that are remarkably resistant to incorporation into the dough. If you have this problem, just mix all the water in first until the flour is hydrated, autolyse rest, and then work in the oil. Don't put your Poolish, Biga or Pate Fermente in the refrigerator overnight. You'll get better flavour and a faster start to the main dough's fermentation if you just leave it at room temperature. Smells a bit rough the next day but the results are excellent. I know I bang on about it but, if you're a clumsy bugger like me or wish to make life easier and you have a little spare cash and you want to be able to move fragile doughs around with confidence then buy a SuperPeel. ). It is an indispensible part of my baking equipment. Usual disclaimer - I have not received any reward, monetary or otherwise from nor have I any commercial or advantageous interest in the manufacture, sale , or promotion of the SuperPeel. If a recipe says "makes 7 pitta" or anything else, it's a stupid recipe. 8 is a much easier number for division of dough. Same applies to 15. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHICH TYPE OF COMMERCIAL YEAST YOU USE, FRESH, DRIED ACTIVE, INSTANT THEY'RE ALL VERY SIMILAR STRAINS OF S. CEREVISIAE. I use all 3 interchangeably, whatever's cheap and available. I have never, in over 30 years of baking had a failure I could honestly attribute to the yeast, and the vast majority of problems laid at the door of the yeast are actually faults in the baker's technique. Don't get too hung up on flour protein percentages. I often recommend high protein flour in recipes I post because good results are more likely when doing the recipe for the first time if you use such flour but flour performance is a continuum and you can make excellent bread with flour ranging widely in protein. The oven is a significant factor but a super duper all-singing all-dancing fan assisted monster won't rescue badly mixed, kneaded, shaped or proofed dough. Don't get sidetracked into extremely esoteric arguments about minor techniques. An example would be the endless discussions about weird ways of cutting cinnammon rolls, you know the ones, long threads about the use of string, lasers, circular saws, electric carving knives and similar unlikely implements. It doesn't matter so long as your method works for you. I don't know why anyone ever bothers to clean bakestones. Ed's said this, I'll say it, and I would guess we'll both keep on saying it. You learn more by failure than success. And any baker that says "I never have failures" is a liar, mad or God. Love John --------------- END bread-bakers.v103.n040 --------------- Copyright (c) 1996-2003 Regina Dwork and Jeffrey Dwork All Rights Reserved