Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:09:39 -0700 (MST) -------------- BEGIN bread-bakers.v104.n014 -------------- 001 - The Markhams - Ciambatta.. for Mike inHavana 007 - "Russell J. Fletcher" Subject: ciabatta and holes in bread Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 09:12:26 -0600 I've been playing with ciabatta for a while, being a novice baker, I'm having a hard time working with such wet bread. I found two sources that might be helpful. The first is from the King Arthur Flour's site. They have cooking classes. Here is the link to the ciabatta and baguette one: http://ww2.kingarthurflour.com/cgibin/htmlos.cgi/0825.2.2040971311527600944 Also, bon Appetit magazine has a cooking class. This is the link to their ciabatta: http://eat.epicurious.com/bonappetit/cooking_class/?/bonappetit/cooking_class/ciabatta.html I haven't actually tired these yet, I've gotten distracted by other breads, but have been thinking about giving it another shot. I also found durum wheat flour and want to try pugliese. however, these really wet doughs intimidate me. (I also can't let my kids play with the dough and help. It's not like play doh.) Hope these help. Carolyn --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v104.n014.2 --------------- From: Tarheel_Boy@webtv.net (Skallywagg) Subject: Here's one for Silverman... Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 11:46:56 -0500 (EST) Sounds like the title of a play, doesn't it? There are several recipes for New York-style bagels on the internet. Google "New York-style bagels" and you will find a gazillion of them. Here's one from CooksRecipes.com that I have used with considerable success. Authentic New York-Style Homemade Bagels Caution! You will be spoiled with just one bite, because these are what bagels are meant to taste like. You'll never be satisfied eating another one of those mass-produced commercial bagels sold either in your grocer's bakery, bread or freezer section. Dough: 1 1/2 cups warm water (110 to 115 F / 45 C ) 1 tablespoon dry active yeast 1 tablespoon sugar 1 tablespoon vegetable oil 2 teaspoons malt syrup 2 teaspoons salt 4 1/2 to 5 cups unbleached bread flour Kettle Water: About 6 quarts water 2 tablespoons malt syrup or powder 1 teaspoon salt Toppings: (optional) Sesame seeds Poppy seeds Minced fresh garlic Minced fresh onion Caraway seeds Coarse salt Corn meal for sprinkling baking sheets (optional) 1. In a large mixing bowl, stir together water, yeast, and sugar. Let stand for 5 minutes. With a wooden spoon, stir in oil, malt and one cup of the flour. Add salt, then enough of remaining flour to make a stiff dough. On a lightly floured surface, knead for 10 to 12 minutes. Cover with a floured dish towel and allow dough to rest on a board for about 15 minutes. 2. Divide dough into 8 sections and form each section into 10-inch long strips. Roll the ends together to seal and make a ring. Place on a lightly floured surface, cover, and let bagels rest 15 to 20 minutes, rising about halfway and becoming slightly puffy. 3. Meanwhile, fill a large cooking pot or Dutch oven three quarters full with water. Add the malt syrup and salt. Bring water to a boil. 4. Preheat oven to 450F (230C). Line two large baking sheets with baking parchment and, if desired, sprinkle generously with corn meal. Set aside. 5. Line two other baking sheets with a kitchen towel, set near your stove. Reduce boiling water to a simmer and cook 2 bagels at a time (do not crowd the pot). Simmer bagels for about 45 seconds on one side, then turn and cook other side for another 45 seconds and then drain bagels on the towel-lined baking sheet. 6. Carefully place bagels on the parchment-lined baking sheets. Bake bagels plain or sprinkle with a topping of your choice. 7. Place in the hot oven, immediately reduce heat to 425F (220C), and bake about 17 to 25 minutes. When almost baked, turn bagels over (a pair of tongs do the job easily). If you have a baking stone, finish bagels on the stone directly. 8. Transfer bagels to wire rack to cool. These freeze well, which helps to retain a just-baked taste, if they aren't all eaten on the first day. To freeze, slice cooled bagels first, place a small strip of plastic between the bagel halves and place in a plastic self-sealing freezer bag. When you're ready for a bagel, they'll come apart easily, ready to pop into the toaster/oven and enjoy. Makes 8 I've made these for Jewish friends who come from New York City and they love 'em. These are the same people for whom I made Rose Levy Beranbaum's Jewish Deli Rye Bread that my friends now call Bob's Not-Bad-For-A-Gentile Jewish Rye Bread. Bob the Tarheel Baker --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v104.n014.3 --------------- From: "mike fuller" Subject: expansion, holes, ciabatta Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 09:14:59 -0500 john said: >The only reliable way I know to obtain big air holes in bread is high >hydration and intensive gluten development. > >My standard Ciabatta method, for example involves hydration of 80%+ (800 >grams water and 50 grams oil to 1 kilo of flour), an overnight poolish to >raise acidity and help form strong gluten, a high speed mix and 4 stretch >and fold cycles. The resultant dough is very soft but also very elastic. > >I'd be happy to expand on this cursory answer if your interest has been >piqued. yes, please john, expand 1. what is a poolish? 2. also, if you can design your response to fit someone who has neither a mixer nor access to gluten, please do so 3. also, what exactly is a "stretch and fold cycle" ? i found a ciabatti recipe ( www.sourdoughhome.com/ciabatta.html ) but it calls for sourdough, into which i have not yet plunged my hands , so if there is another way with regular yeast i appreciate a recipe. i found this one very complicated, by the way... thanks mike in havana --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v104.n014.4 --------------- From: Tarheel_Boy@webtv.net (Skallywagg) Subject: A tip for the new bakers on this list... Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 11:55:31 -0500 (EST) I often see a request from someone new to bread baking that asks for "a good recipe for a sandwich bread." Or it may be "a good whole wheat bread" or whatever. I'm sure you get the idea. It was recently pointed out on this list that if you put ten bakers in a room and ask for a specific recipe, you would receive twelve different answers. That is so true as those of us who have been baking bread for a while, have our own twists and variations on a theme. I suggest that you utilize Google. Just type the name of the recipe you are looking for in the search and hit search. Voila! Like magic, you will find several recipes. Choose the one that appeals and give it a shot. I don't mean to imply that you shouldn't ask questions here as that's what this list is all about: The wonderful camaraderie of bread bakers. I offer the Google tip only as a short cut to get you started. Bob the Tarheel Baker --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v104.n014.5 --------------- From: Lobo Subject: air holes in bread Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 12:46:50 -0700 >Mike in Havana asked: >What's the best way to get big air holes in bread? Knead in as little flour as possible. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v104.n014.6 --------------- From: Honey Subject: Ciambatta.. for Mike inHavana Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 13:41:26 -0800 (PST) Ciambatta *Note* You do not want to use bread flour for this bread* The night before you make the bread, you must make a "poolish"....a fermented starter. Combine 2 c. water with 3 cups all purpose flour and 1/4 tsp. yeast. Mix it with your hand until it's smooth and the flour is completely hydrated. Cover it and let it sit on the counter overnight. The next morning, when you remove the lid, you should be able to smell the alcohol first, then it will smell slightly sweet. The mixture will be foamy and bubbly. Dump the mixture into the big bowl of your Kitchen Aid mixer and attach the paddle hook. (this is a very wet dough.) Add 3 cups all purpose flour, 2 tb. olive oil, 2 tsp. salt, 1/2 c. water. The dough must be thoroughly mixed.. At medium low speed on the mixer for maybe 10 minutes, eventually the dough was very smooth and almost creamy looking. Continue to beat it until you could see the gluten forming; when I picked up a handful of dough from the center of the mixing bowl it stretched a long thick ribbon from the hand back into the bowl. The dough is poured into a well-oiled container, covered, and set to ferment for 3 hours; it's very sticky and wet at this point. After the 3 hour point has passed, uncover the dough every 45 minutes, oil your hands, and, thinking of the container of dough as a clock, scoop your hand under the dough at 2, 5, 7, 9, and 11 o'clock and fold that side into the middle of the dough. After these 5 points have been punched and folded to the middle, then turn the whole mass of dough over onto it's other side, cover and allow to rise another 45 minutes. The punching and folding happens three times, each time 45 minutes apart. The dough will thicken and become less sticky as it goes through these various risings. Cover the bread board with flour; dump the dough out onto the board without handling it. It will plop out if the container was well-oiled. Sprinkle the exposed top with flour generously. Use a sharp knife to split the mass of dough in half. Let the dough rest, uncovered, for 45 minutes. Sprinkle 2 cookie sheets with cornmeal Preheat the oven to 425 F. Put a cast iron skillet on the lower rack while the oven heats up. Use a dough scraper to loosen one end of the resting dough from the flour-covered board and then use the scraper to loosen the other end. Put your hands under the dough, close to the middle of the dough, and gently pulll and elongate the loaf. Transfer this loaf to the baking sheet and then turn the dough upside down on the sheet. Put the loaves into the hot oven and pour 1 cup of tepid water into the hot iron skillet to create steam and close the door. Bake the bread about 45 minutes. It will brown nicely, but does not get overly brown at that high temperature because there is no sugar in the dough, to caramelize. The loaves will be about 3-4 inches thick, (thinner on the ends) with a thick and dense and chewy crust. The inside of the bread is laced with large holes. Enjoy! --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v104.n014.7 --------------- From: "Russell J. Fletcher" Subject: ABM Garlic Bread question - need help Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 17:13:37 -0800 The following is a recipe from another list. I have a problem with it and got no response from the other list so I am bringing it to the experts. I have made it twice and the taste is just wonderful. However, the bread seems to rise all right, then the top couple inches fall, and the top looks like a cardboard box when it is done baking. The only changes I have made are to leave out the Black Pepper, since I am allergic to it. I wouldn't think that would make a difference. I measured even more carefully the second time I made the loaf and it still fell. Does anyone have any suggestions to keep it from falling? Thanks. Russ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 07:53:33 -0500 From: "Marla Hudgins" Garlic Bread a.. 1 3/8 cups water b.. 3 tablespoons olive oil c.. 1 teaspoon minced garlic d.. 4 cups bread flour e.. 3 tablespoons white sugar f.. 2 teaspoons salt g.. 1/4 cup grated Parmesan cheese h.. 1 teaspoon dried basil i.. 1 teaspoon garlic powder j.. 3 tablespoons chopped fresh chives k.. 1 teaspoon coarsely ground black pepper l.. 2 1/2 teaspoons bread machine yeast Directions 1. Place ingredients in the bread machine pan in the order suggested by the manufacturer. 2. Select Basic or White Bread cycle, and press Start. Makes 1 - 2 pound loaf ----- Russell Fletcher Battle Ground, WA 98604 acoder@xprt.net --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v104.n014.8 --------------- From: "JJ" Subject: Breadman Ultimate Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 08:00:51 -0500 My pan has gotten dented (dropping it doesn't help things!) and I need a new one since it won't sit in the "clips" anymore. I tried to do a search on the web, but I couldn't find anything where I could just buy a new pan. Does anyone know where I could go to get just the pan? I searched the salton site and it didn't even mention a bread machine! JJ (Ya-Ya Name:Duchess Green Thumb or Viscountess Foot in Mouth) 222.8/197/135 [[Editor's note: JJ had the wrong url for Salton. is where they sell products. There are no bread machine replacement parts listed. The customer service number is 1-866-ESALTON (1-866-372-5866). There is also Culinary Parts Unlimited 1-866-PART-HELP (1-866-727-8435). They have replacement paddles - no pans listed - but you could try.]] --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v104.n014.9 --------------- From: FREDERICKA COHEN Subject: missing contributor Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:05:53 -0800 (PST) Last May I received the instructions for an 8 strand challah from Leigh Davisson. The accompanying note said that the technique was "surprisingly easy". I finally got around to making the challah and it was every thing promised. Unfortunately, the instructions came directly to me and so I don't know the group where we first "met". When I sent my "thank you" note, it came back. Leigh, if you are out there somewhere, many thanks!! Fredericka Cohen cohenfs@prodigy.net [[Editor's note: Leigh, send in the recipe! We can't find it in the archives of the past 3 years.]] --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v104.n014.10 --------------- From: Carolyn Schaffner Subject: Re: Bread holes Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 05:34:26 -0500 Hope everyone has seen Peter Reinhart's article in FINE COOKING, March '04, page 58 to 61, which details, with words and photos, the making of CLASSIC FOCACCIA (It's easier than you think). The whole thing works, too! Carolyn Schaffner in Buffalo, NY PS--- Thanks much for all the Chelsea Bun recipes!! It's been a fantastic hunt. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v104.n014.11 --------------- From: "renzo_ri" Subject: Re: Why no cold water pizza in American Pie Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 07:19:52 -0500 Roz replied to this question explaining that the recipe in on page 107 and that she made it using the Italian #00 flour, aka "doppo zero." If you have difficulty finding this flour, it can easily be approximated by using 5 parts all-purpose flour to 1 part cake flour. This is a useful formula also when making pasta. renzo --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v104.n014.12 --------------- From: "Bonni Brown" Subject: NYC Bagels Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 07:38:41 -0500 In response to "Growing up in the New York City area in the 1950s, I loved the bagels -- plain, small, hard and chewy. Does anybody have a recipe?" I grew up in Brooklyn in the 1950's and so far have found that the bagels in Nancy Silverton's book, "Breads from La Brea Bakery" come the closest in density and flavor. The size of the bagel can be controlled by the baker, but I suspect the overnight rest in the refigerator helps develop that wonderful flavor and chewy texture. Bonni Brown Bonni Bakes Edible Art www.bonnibakes.com --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v104.n014.13 --------------- From: Wcsjohn@aol.com Subject: Ciabatti - for Mike Fuller Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 09:51:26 EST Mike, Do you mean Ciabatta? If so the following formula and method, which is the latest version of my standard Ciabatta (to the list - If you've saved the older version please replace it with this one) will give light, holey very tasty bread. The method works very well on any Ciabatta formula with the requisite 80% or so hydration. POOLISH 50 gm rye flour 450 gm high-protein white flour 850 gm water 1/2 tsp instant yeast DOUGH The Poolish 100 gm wholewheat "bread" flour 400 gm high-protein white flour or 200 gm sifted wholewheat "bread" flour 300 gm high-protein white flour 20 gm salt 1 tsp instant yeast METHOD Mix the Poolish ingredients to a smooth batter and leave AT ROOM TEMPERATURE overnight. The resultant goo will smell strongly of sour rye and yeast by-products. Add the dough's dry ingedients to the Poolish and mix roughly until just hydrated. Leave for 20 minutes. If you are making the dough by hand. Mix with a wet spoon or hand (Thanks to my American lady baking correspondent for pointing out that a cupped hand is more effective than a spoon in doughs like this.) for 5 minutes or so, until fairly smooth and showing signs of elasticity. If you are making the dough by mixer, run the machine at medium (3 on a Kenwood) for 5-6 minutes until the dough is smooth and elastic. Flour your counter, generously, and scrape the very wet dough onto the flour, dust all over with more flour and use a scraper to help you roll the dough in the flour until it's coated all over. Leave for 10 minutes, sprinkle more flour around the dough and use your scraper under the dough to release it. With floured hands perform a stretch and fold. Leaving to relax as necessary, repeat the stretch and fold 3 more times if made in a mixer 4 more times if made by hand, then leave to rise for about an hour - 1.5 - 2 times growth. Degassing as little as possible, cut the dough into 4 strips, shape into fat loaves by stretching and folding and proof, en couche, to at least 1.5 times increase. Invert the loaves out of the couche and stretch to the typical Ciabatta shape by gently grasping the ends of each loaf and pulling. Place each loaf as it is stertched on parchment or peel or whatever arrangements you normally favour for getting loaves into the oven Bake, immediately, no recovery, at your oven's max, on stones, steam optional, can't say it made a difference in my bakes, for 1/2 hour, or 40 minutes if you like dark tasty crusts - I do. Cool on racks for at least 1 hour before eating. NOTES The dough is a bit of a bugger to handle but the elastic crumb produced, in part, by the high hydration is magnificent. The bread is obviously a Ciabatta variant but it is a lean dough so will not keep as long as a typical Ciabatta made with oil and milk. The rye in the poolish is important for both flavour and structure. John --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v104.n014.14 --------------- From: SHawley711@aol.com Subject: Recipe for Ciabatta Bread Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 10:06:34 EST Here you go Mike! The actually spelling of this bread is CIABATTA. Hope you enjoy! Sandy H. * Exported from MasterCook * Ciabatta Recipe By : Serving Size : 0 Preparation Time :0:00 Categories : Breads Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method -------- ------------ -------------------------------- For the BIGA STARTER: 1/4 ounce fresh yeast 1 scant cup lukewarm water 3 cups unbleached plain (all-purpose) flour, plus extra for dusting For the DOUGH: 1/2 ounce fresh yeast 1 2/3 cups lukewarm water 4 tablespoons lukewarm milk 5 cups unbleached white bread flour 2 teaspoons salt 3 tablespoons extra virgin olive oil Cream the yeast for the biga starter with a little of the water. Sift the flour into a large bowl. Gradually mix in the yeast mixture and sufficient of the remaining water to form a firm dough. Turn out the biga starter dough on to a lightly floured surface and knead for about 5 minutes until smooth and elastic. Return the dough to the bowl, cover with lightly oiled clear film (plastic wrap) and leave in a warm place for 12 - 15 hours, or until the dough has risen and is starting to collapse. Sprinkle three baking sheets with flour. Mix the yeast for the dough with a little of the water until creamy, then mix in the remainder. Add the yeast mixture to the biga and gradually mix in. Mix in the milk, beating thoroughly with a wooden spoon. Using your hand, gradually beat in the flour, lifting the dough as you mix. Mixing the dough will take 15 minutes or more and form a very wet mix, impossible to knead on a work surface. Beat in the salt and olive oil. Cover with lightly oiled clear film and leave to rise, in a warm place, for 1-1/2 to 2 hours, or until doubled in bulk. With a spoon, carefully tip one-third of the dough at a time on to the baking sheets without knocking back (punching down) the dough in the process. Using floured hands, shape into rough oblong loaf shapes, about 1" thick. Flatten slightly with splayed fingers. Sprinkle with flour and leave to rise in a warm place for 30 minutes. Meanwhile, preheat the oven to 425 F. Bake for 25 - 30 minutes, or until golden brown and sounding hollow when tapped on the base. Transfer to a wire rack to cool. Source: "The Complete Book of Bread & Bread Machines", by Christine Ingram & Jennie Shapter Description: "An irregular-shaped Italian bread is so called because it looks like an old shoe or slipper. It is made with a very wet dough flavoured with olive oil; cooking produces a bread with holes and a wonderully chewy crust." Yield: "3 loaves" - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Per Serving (excluding unknown items): 395 Calories; 43g Fat (95.2% calories from fat); 2g Protein; 3g Carbohydrate; 0g Dietary Fiber; 8mg Cholesterol; 4293mg Sodium. Exchanges: 0 Non-Fat Milk; 8 1/2 Fat. NOTES : VARIATION: To make tomato-flavoured ciabatta, add (4 ounces) 1 cup chopped, drained sun-dried tomatoes in olive oil. Add with the olive oil in step 5. --------------- END bread-bakers.v104.n014 --------------- Copyright (c) 1996-2004 Regina Dwork and Jeffrey Dwork All Rights Reserved