Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 07:23:01 GMT -------------- BEGIN bread-bakers.v105.n011 -------------- 001 - mbauman@att.net - re:Italian 00 Flour 002 - Dave Glaze Subject: Re: Need baking stone lessons Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 14:21:55 -0800 Frederick Try preheating the oven for 30 minutes then when your bread comes out of the oven, check to see that the bottom of the bread is browned. If they aren't, then preheat longer. I found that when I switched from quarry tiles to thicker firebricks the bottoms of my loaves were no longer browning, even though the rest of the bread was fine, so I had to increase the preheating time to1 hour. Use a thermometer to tell you when the oven is at the right temperature, then let it heat a little longer to make sure the stone is hot enough.. I bake almost all my breads on the middle shelf of my oven and I throw water into a firebrick filled grilling pan on the bottom rack. You can put the water in before or after loading the breads. I do both, a half cup before and a cup after loading the breads. If you put water in before you load the breads in, you have to be careful to not get hit with the steam when you open the door. I also have a layer of quarry tiles on the top shelf which absorb heat and radiate it back onto the tops of the bread. The extra tiles also help to recover heat when the oven door has been opened. On another list I was warned that when you add bricks and stones you have to be careful not to increase the mass of the oven too much or you may heat the oven walls enough to cause a fire in an adjacent wall or cupboard. My oven is an electric self clean oven and therefore well insulated. Just check the walls of the oven to see they don't become too hot. I turn my oven on as soon as I shape my loaves and set them to proof. If I am retarding the loaves in the fridge, I start the oven a half to one full hour before removing the loaves which usually take at least a half hour to warm up and finish proofing, often longer. I do this because it is so easy for me to forget to turn the oven on later. With the bricks and stone in the oven, it does not lose much heat and so does not cycle on and off as often. Slashing the loaves comes just before putting them into the oven. So I slash, put water in, put the loaves in, the put more water in. I close the oven door between each operation to retain heat. Cheers Dave --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v105.n011.3 --------------- From: Maggie Glezer Subject: Baking Stones and Milk Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 23:17:31 -0500 Dear Fredricka and Allen, Regarding baking stones, I have been using one for a long time, and I find there is an awful lot of strange advice about it being bandied about. I only keep mine in the oven for baking certain breads, and keep it put away for the rest of the time. By keeping the stone in the oven all the time, you will really be wasting a lot of energy, because preheating takes forever. For making bread (and, trust me, it's not worth it for frozen pizza), put the stone on the HIGHEST possible shelf, taking into consideration the height of the bread when fully risen. For the best quality baking, you want the heat to be as even as possible, bottom to top. To get sufficient top heat, you need to get the bread as close as possible to the top of the oven, where there is quit a bit of radiant heat (remember that heat rises and will circulate in your oven). For most recipes, this will be in the middle of the oven, but for pizza and other flat bread, I will try to put the stone up even higher. Ever notice how low pizza ovens are? I see some people recommending putting the stone at the bottom of the oven, but you will quickly find that if you do that, you will burn the bottom of your bread before the top has even begun to brown. I have tried this in both gas and electric ovens and it holds true in both. Preheat the stone for an hour to the same temperature that you will bake the bread to get the full benefit of the stone. You can try putting a pan of water below the stone, but if you have ever baked in a professional oven with compressed steam, you will consider it a wasted effort. I just spray the bread with a mister just before baking it, and donšt bother with anything else. I have never noticed a difference with the pan of water. About the milk, scalding the milk makes a HUGE difference in the volume of your bread, especially if you are trying for a really big oven spring. With proper shaping, your breads should be able to at least quadruple in volume when fully baked. With unscalded milk, this is impossible, and the texture is much coarser. Professional bakers use heat-treated dried milk, to avoid the depressing effect of unscalded milk. I have to check the literature, but this is either due to an enzyme in the milk or another protein there, which is denatured by scalding it. Fascinating science! Best, Maggie Glezer --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v105.n011.4 --------------- From: Diane Purkiss Subject: French flour in the UK Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:36:24 +0000 Having just acquired some gorgeous French recipe books on a trip to Paris, I'm now searching for flours! I've got a stock of Type 55, often called baguette flour, but am now looking for type 65 and above all Type 85 farine de meule. Anybody know of a source in the UK (or EU)? One of the books is Erich Kayser's 100% Pain, which has a charming little history section and a number of good recipes, and his baguette du monge is very heartily recommended; an excellent baguette recipe, sensible for the home baker but with good, crusty, tasty results. I'm keen to make his cumin and hazelnut bread; I had it from the shop in Paris, and it was magnificent. Meanwhile I heard that some French bakers now use spices in their levains - anyone know anything of this? Finally - this is all notes! - I do warmly recommend Steven Kaplan's books to anyone interested in the history of bread. I've learnt a lot from his work. -- Diane Purkiss --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v105.n011.5 --------------- From: David A Barrett Subject: Adding Gluten to Flour Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:23:41 -0500 I liked Allen's math, but I think it's a little complex: If you want C oz. of high gluten flour, you know > X + Y = C > 0.14 = (0.125*X + Y)/(X + Y) > > We have two equations and two unknowns so we can solve for X and Y to get > > X = C * 0.86/0.875 > Y = C - X If you assume that the amount of gluten to be added won't be significant compared to the amount of flour, then: X + Y = X (close enough) Y = X * (0.14 - 0.125) Y = 0.015X Using volume measures, a Cup is 250ml and a tbsp is 15ml. There are 16.666 tbsp in a cup. Then you need to add 1/4 tbsp of gluten for each cup of flour. The fact that it is so small, bears out my original assumption. Dave Barrett --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v105.n011.6 --------------- From: Mary Stackhouse Subject: baking stone Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 11:27:15 -0500 Fredericka, About your baking stone. After years of baking, I eventually got a baking stone. I keep my stone on the bottom rack all the time. I have used mine in an electric on the bottom rack only spraying the oven with water, not preheating a pan on the bottom of the oven with pretty good results. I have also used a preheated pan on the bottom of a gas oven, adding water prior to baking but haven't really noticed much difference between that and spraying water so I usually spray. If you are going to cook pizza on the stone, the recipes that I use call for the oven to be heated to 500 F. It does take a while for the stone to heat up. Try 30 minutes and see how it works. I haven't baked frozen pizza on the stone, but I would heat the oven to the directions per the package and bake the frozen pizza right on the stone. The stone does take time to heat up so you will have to preheat longer. I don't know if an hour is really necessary. I have preheated 30 - 45 minutes with good results of baking pizza and bread. All ovens are different, you should just experiment. I have also baked free standing round breads on a sheet pan directly on the stone with good results. I leave my stone in the oven all the time. I think it helps the oven maintain consistant oven temperature and I have noticed better results when roasting meats. Good luck. Mary Stackhouse --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v105.n011.7 --------------- From: "Gerald Ulett" Subject: 00 Flour Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 10:15:03 -0800 Using a Google search, I found the following excerpt from a Mario Batali book: "In Italy double zero (00) is the pasta maker's choice: the 00 refers to its sift fineness. Since it's hard to come by here, I like to blend 80 percent cake flour and 20 percent all-purpose flour, but if you want to buy only one type of flour for making fresh pasta which isn't such a tragedy, buy cake flour. Be sure to avoid "self-rising" cake flour." I have made both pasta and pizza dough using all-purpose flour and have been satisfied with the results, but I think I will try the cake flour/all-purpose flour mix next time. Jerry Ulett --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v105.n011.8 --------------- From: "Steve Cabito" Subject: Re: Gluten measurements Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 00:53:20 -0700 For the algebraically-challenged: For every 100g of high-gluten flour desired, add 1.7g gluten to 98.3g regular flour. -Steve --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v105.n011.9 --------------- From: "Marcy Goldman" Subject: Italian 00 Flour A recipe and a source Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 06:42:14 -0500 OO" Italian Flour Pizza Dough From Better Baking.Com and a website link to Molini Pizzuti Flour. Say Bis. Say..bravissimo for this flour. Because I received so much demand for it and about it at my website, I finally ordered two cases to work with. Called "OO" Flour, from Italy, it is now one of my first choices when I make pizza dough in the BetterBaking.com Test Kitchen. This recipe makes a '10' of a pizza dough. This flour is available in gourmet stores online (or email . That is the company we ordered from directly from Italty. they were incredibly responsive - esp. if you tell them I sent you and can direct you to some retailers or wholesales in the U.S. and Canada. (They are also great baking fans themselves. The 00 flour makes the most supple, sumptuous, rustic, gourmet pizza dough ever. Add a topping of drained, crushed plum tomatoes, garlic and fresh herbs, fresh mozzarella slices and you are smokin'. The baked dough features those nice blisters and is crisp withou being dried out. A long rise with little yeast is the way to go or at least, my preference. You could use more yeast for a breadier pizza (I make an Italian Bakery Pizza as well and that is a big square pizza, with tomato sauce and herbs, and about 1 inch thick). The dough made with this flour does not get as 'bucky' as bread flour-based pizzas or even all-purpose and it has a supple, different flavor. The consistency in the bag is almost like cake flour. When I am out of OO flour, I do indeed make pizza with all-purpose flour or often, one third bread flour to two thirds all-purpose flour. In the BetterBaking.com Test Kitchen, we never serve pizza on plates by the way. The tables are covered with parchment paper, pizza cutting wheels, hot sauce and fresh herbs and cheese are laid out and it is each paesan. On a personal/professional note, and inasmuch as I like this flour, I continue experimenting with flours, recipes, and baking methods when it comes to pizza. There are a multitude of roads that lead to Rome, in pizza terms and that is the fun of it. By the way, fresh yeast takes this up a notch - make that - four notches but Fermipan or Saf is superb and allows (if you use a tiny bit) a long rise and less risk of over fermentation. If I am out of fresh yeast or my preferences in instant, Fleischmans bread machine or instant is fine. This recipe makes great pizza on the grill pizza dough but most often, I pan dough is panned on out parchment paper lined baking sheets, which also have a bit of olive oil on them, and some fine semolina. Alternatively, I make pizzas in cast iron skillets, prepared the same way. Leftover scraps of this dough are rolled almost as thin as strudel, left to rise, and then fried up in hot olive oil. Then cut in wedges and tossed in herbs, salt, and a touch of garlic powder and served with marinara sauce as a little pizza 'chaser'. Enjoy - and experiment yourself, Marcy Goldman 00 Italian Flour Pizza Dough From BetterBaking.Com, 1 3/4 cups warm water 1 1/2 teaspoons dry yeast or 3/4 ounce fresh yeast 1/4 cup fine semolina 1 1/2 teaspoons salt 1 tablespoon sugar 3 tablespoons extra virgin olive oil 3 1/2 - 4 cups "OO" Italian Flour, preferably Molini Pizzuti * *If you do not have this flour, use unbleached all-purpose flour. In a large mixing bowl, whisk the water and yeast together. Then add in salt, sugar, oil and most of flour. Mix a bit and let stand 20 minutes. Add in remaining flour to make a really slack dough that holds together but is rather soft, about 5-8 minutes. Place in a lightly oiled bowl, cover and let rise 1-4 hours, until it rises, blisters up and just barely starts to deflate. Turn dough out on to a floured board and do not deflate - just gently work with it. Divide and form into rounds for pizzas (about 3-4 9 inch). If/when dough retracts, let it rest a bit and then coax to the right diameter. Transfer pizzas on a doubled up baking sheet lined with parchment, that has been drizzled with olive oil and a dusting of semolina of fine cornmeal. Dress pizzas as you like (I recommend crushed plum tomatoes on each pizza, a drizzle of olive oil, crush garlic, fresh herbs like basil and oregano, slivers of parmasan and some slivers of fresh mozerella and chevre). Let rise 30-60 minutes, lightly covered with a plastic sheet. Preheat oven to 475 F - 500 F. Let it preheat a good 30 minutes (so, that is mid way through pizzas rising Bake pizzas on middle rack, until done, about 8-12 minutes. Drizzle with hot sauce (I recommend Red Devil by Trappeys - it is salty/vinegary and only moderate heat), fresh pepper and minced basil leaves as pizza comes out of the oven. Serves 3-4. (c) This is a Marcy Goldman/BetterBaking.com original recipe This recipe is for sole, personal use of visitors of BetterBaking.Com Online Magazine. Marcy Goldman/ BetterBaking.com recipes are for your enjoyment but not to be posted or reprinted without express permission of the author/baker. Thank you kindly for respecting my copyright and happy baking. BetterBaking.Com/Baker Boulanger est. 1997 - 2005 --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v105.n011.10 --------------- From: Werner Gansz Subject: Re: Need baking stone lessons Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 08:06:13 -0500 Fredericka, I'm not sure the baking stone does much for pre-baked pizza. It's purpose is normally to drive heat up into a raw dough. The direct contact with the stone transfers heat into the dough faster than the air contact in the oven so the loaf cooks (at least initially) from the bottom up, providing a strong oven rise. For most pre-baked pizza there is little for the oven to do except heat the pizza and provide a little final browning for the crust. For baking bread, I turn the oven on with about 35 minutes lead time. It takes about 20 minutes for my oven to get up to temperature so that leaves an extra 15 minutes for the stone to get uniformly heated. My baking stone is heated by the electric element which is directly below the stone. In effect it is the stone which heats the oven. If your stone is far above the heating element it may take longer for it to be uniformly heated. You may also find that your baking procedure and times will change a bit with the stone. I found that it was best to start with a high temperature, 475 to 500 F, then turn the oven down to 400 or 425 F immediately after putting the loaves in the oven. (Lower temperature for larger loaves, higher temperature for baguettes, rolls.) The hot stone drives the heat up through the loaves while the dough is still soft enough to allow the bread to rise, then the air in the oven slowly bakes the upper crust. You'll know it's right when the bottom crust is the same color as the top crust and the crumb gets to the right temperature at the same time the color is right, 195 F (moist crumb) to 205 F (drier crumb). Werner --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v105.n011.11 --------------- From: "Debbie Rogers" Subject: RE: baking stone lessons Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 08:19:41 -0500 I have a thick pizza stone in my oven that I leave there all the time. I never adjust preheating or baking times any different than the recipe calls for including breads. My oven cooks "slow" so I think the pizza stone helps. I set anything on it from oven proof pots or dishes to slices of bread directly on it to toast or rolls to re-heat, etc. I love it! Debbie Rogers --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v105.n011.12 --------------- From: Tarheel_Boy@webtv.net (Skallywagg Forever) Subject: Re: preheat time Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 09:33:05 -0500 Fredericka writes: "I think the bread instructions are out of order. After giving rising directions, the recipe calls for slashing the top. Then it calls for placing the stone in the oven; "pre-heat oven to 375" and placing the loaves in the oven. Shouldn't the oven be pre-heated earlier and for how long?" Bob the Tarheel Baker sez: You are correct, Fredericka. Crank up your oven for at least 30 minutes. Each oven is different, but I crank mine up to 500 or 550 and then turn it down to the recommended baking temperature just before I put the loaf in. And, yes, you should slash just before it the loaf goes in. The oven spring should open the slashes nicely. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v105.n011.13 --------------- From: Tarheel_Boy@webtv.net (Skallywagg Forever) Subject: Italian 00 Flour Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 09:55:37 -0500 I offer the following from The Artisan in the event you are unable to find a source for Italian 00 Flour: One of the things we have tried not to do on The Artisan is to try and convince visitors that there is a single method by which Italian style bread should be made. We have spent more years than we like to remember unlearning techniques that were presented as authentic and irrefutable in texts published in this country, and we try not to repeat that experience. To a certain extent, we have an advantage when attempting to reproduce Italian regional breads, because we have experienced these breads ourselves during numerous visits to Italy. We know how breads were made, and tasted, nearly 30 years ago, and how they are made, and taste, today. We have eaten the breads of artisan bakers, and those of a more industrial persuasion. We know the look and taste of regional breads and we know when a recipe or a bread falls short of the original. This knowledge is a benchmark for everything that we do. Because so many of the texts, magazines, and catalog product literature prominent today "think" for us, we have shied away from thinking for you, our visitors. We have and will continue to present as many basic formulas (recipes), techniques, and variations as are available to us. It is our desire that you, the baker, decide for yourself which breads you prefer to bake time and again. That being said, we will now present our own personal preferences in respect to flour suitable for making Italian style bread. We do not prefer organic, unbleached, high protein, or all purpose flour over other flour. We have not found that bread made with organic unbleached flour is necessarily superior any other. This surprised us, because we often read that organic grains and methods produce a tastier, higher-quality flour. It may be that organic flour production is still in its infancy, and as it develops so will its performance and consistency. We do prefer organic flour in recipes which call for whole wheat flour. We have tried conventional flours categorized as both high-protein and high-gluten. Although high-protein flour, commonly referred to as bread flour, works well for the style of bread produced in the US, we have not found it to work well for European, and in this instance, Italian style breads. Prof. Raymond Calvel of France is quoted on this topic in Volume 1, Number 4, of The Bread Bakers Guild of America Newsletter, published in July of 1993. "It is a common belief that high gluten, spring wheat is the best choice for hearth baked breads. But Professor Calvel questions that belief, pointing out that, although spring wheat does have a high quantity of gluten, it does not have the quality of gluten needed for the long-fermentation, non-machined, hearth baked breads made by most Guild members. Instead, he feels the gluten in hard winter wheat provides the best possible combinations of performance characteristics..." It is on this last point that we differ from Prof. Calvel regarding Italian style bread. We have tried a variety of unbleached all-purpose flours, milled from 100% hard red winter wheat, and have not found these flours preferable, especially as these wheats relate to the texture and taste of the resulting bread. Our preferred flour is an unbleached all-purpose flour, ranging in protein content from 9.8 - 11%. This unbleached, all-purpose flour is a blend of hard red wnter wheat flour and soft winter wheat flour. This flour has proven to be the most dependable relative to performance characteristics and consistency. It is our flour of choice when making Italian style bread. We have seen it suggested, in more than one instance, that either pastry or cake flour can be blended with unbleached all-purpose flour to approximate Italian flour. We have also seen it suggested that high-protein flour be utilized in starters, especially for breads with long fermentation. While we know the blending of a variety of flours and the use of more than one type of flour can be effective in a commercial setting, we have not found it to be the case when working with those flours available to the serious home baker. In our opinion, the best way in which to judge flour quality is to experiment with a number of flours and determine which produces the most favorable results. We also recommend that time be spent becoming acquainted with the concepts we have presented. They are not terribly exciting in that they do not tempt one's sense of smell as a freshly baked loaf of bread might, but the end result of knowing the "W's", "P's" and "L's" of your flour may well be a better loaf of bread. Bob the Tarheel Baker --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v105.n011.14 --------------- From: Popthebaker@aol.com Subject: Fredericka: Baking Stone Lesson Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 11:13:30 EST I have used a baking stone for the past 8 years. My routine is to preheat the oven and the stone to 500 F for at least 30 minutes, usually 45 to 60 minutes, then drop it to 450 F just before placing the loaf in the oven. I also place a steam pan on the shelf below the stone, if required for the type of bread. Preheating seems to serve two purposes, first the browning of the bottom crust, second it is a heat sink that maintains the oven heat with the opening of the door to insert the loaf or rotate it half way through baking. For breads that are baked at lower temperatures I still preheat the stone to 500 F then drop to the indicated temperature. I also have used Maggie Glezer's technique of preheating the stone to 550 F and then using the broiler to bake various flatbreads. Essentially it calls to preheat the stone, insert the loaf, and then turn on the broiler. Leave the door ajar at this point. The residual heat of the stone browns the bottom of the flatbread and the broiler cooks the top crust and any toppings. I have found that I need to bring the stone back to temperature before baking a second loaf. My stone came with seasoning instructions. These called for placing the stone in the oven at 200 F for 1 hour, then increasing the temperature by 100 F until the maximum temperature of the oven is reached. Each step is for 1 hour. I assume this is to drive out any residual moisture in the stone material. I don't have any solution for the preheating of the kitchen when preheating the oven. Pop --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v105.n011.15 --------------- From: RosesCakeBible@aol.com Subject: Re: Martha Stewart mag whole grain oat bread Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 11:41:11 EST thanks jerry ulett for calling our attention to the martha stewart living magazine recipe for whole grain oat bread. it is truly a wonderful bread. for those who are interested, i made a few adjustments: i soaked the bulgur along with the steel-cut oats as they were a bit too hard for my taste when adding them only at the end of the soaking. i replaced the active dry yeast with 2 teaspoons of instant yeast, adding it directly to the flour by whisking it in before adding the salt so it wouldn't come into direct contact with it. also, i needed only 2 cups (308 grams) of all purpose, not 3 cups (my 1-1/2 cups whole-wheat flour weighed 216 grams). and instead of 1-1/2 cups of old fashioned rolled oats only about 3 tablespoons were needed for the outside of the shaped loaf. (i'll admit to also adding my usual left over unfed starter--38 grams, just to give it extra flavor and longer shelf-life but it still would have been wonderful without it. i used an 8 cup capacity bread pan, 9 1/2 x 5 inches). best, rose p.s. my sprouted wheat recipe is now on the hemispheres website: . Click on cyber bar and it's on the top. --------------- END bread-bakers.v105.n011 --------------- -------------- BEGIN bread-bakers.v105.n012 -------------- 001 - Werner Gansz Subject: A True Sour(dough) Rye from Scratch Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 15:01:23 -0500 This recipe is adapted from several sources; Rose Berenbaum's Levy's Jewish Rye recipe posted here several time over the past few years, also, a sour rye made with a yeasted starter posted here about a year ago by an author whose name unfortunately I failed to note, and Peter Reinhart's sourdough seed culture procedure from BBA. The bread uses a rye sourdough starter that makes up 1/3 of the flour content. The result is a dark, chewy crust with a light sour tang, most noticeable when eaten dry but more in the background when eaten with strong foods like pastrami or other cured meats. It makes the best Rubens ever. Rye is one of the best flours for starting sourdoughs presumably because the natural yeast content is very high right from the start. I used stone ground rye flour (Hodgson's here in the Northeast) because stone grinding keeps the flour cooler and is less likely to burn or cook the natural yeast during processing. Once started, any good quality rye flour can be used to maintain the starter. Starter Natural yeast is more sensitive to temperature than commercial yeast. The key to building up a starter from scratch is to not let it get cold. In cold climates it is useful to find or create a space that can be maintained at 78 to 82 F for several days. Day 1 1 cup stone ground rye flour 3/4 cup water, 80 F Mix into a sponge, place into a container that will allow for a doubling in volume. It won't double but it will rise. Cover and keep at 78 to 82 F. After 24 hours the sponge should have risen noticeably and have an "airy" texture. I have started sourdoughs with whole wheat and white flour but I have never had a new sponge rise in one day until I used rye flour. Day 2 1 cup stone ground rye flour 1/2 cup water, 80 F Add the water to the sponge and mix to dissolve the sponge, add the flour. The sponge will be slightly thicker than Day 1. Put in a container that will allow for doubling. Cover and let rise 24 hours at 80 F. The sponge should be stronger and rise higher than day 1, maybe even double. Day 3 and Day 4 each day - 1 cup stone ground rye flour 1/2 cup water, 80 F Throw away 1/2 the sponge. Add the water to the remaining sponge and mix to dissolve the sponge, add the flour. The sponge will continue to thicken. Cover and let rise 24 hours. The sponge should be getting stronger each day. The thick sponge may even triple and fall if tapped. The recipe calls for 2 cups of stirred down sponge. If you plan on maintaining the starter for future breads, add 2 cups of rye flour and 1 1/4 cups of water to double the volume of sponge and let rise at 80 F. It should take anywhere from 8 to 12 hours to double in size. Divide the sponge in half and store one half in the fridge or the freezer, leaving 2 cups of stirred-down sponge for the bread. The Dough 2 cups active, thick, rye sourdough sponge, stirred down 3/4 cup 80 F water 1 Tb barley malt syrup, available from any natural food store 1 Tb vegetable oil 4 cups bread flour 1 Tb sea salt 1 tsp Deli Rye Flavor, available from King Arthur Flour 3 Tb caraway seeds 1/4 tsp Vitamin C powder, available from any natural food store, or KA Flour The caraway seeds, deli rye flavor, and vitamin C powder are all optional. For me caraway seeds are a necessary ingredient for any rye bread. The deli rye flavor is mostly finely ground rye flour to concentrate the rye taste. The dough is fairly soft and without the vitamin C the shaped loaf may end up rather flat, but still delicious. Alternatively you could use less water and create a stiffer dough. I like the crumb and chewy crust the come with softer doughs. Dissolve the rye sponge in the water and mix with the mixer's flat beater. Add the barley malt and vegetable oil Mix all dry ingredients together in a separate bowl. Add dry ingredients to the wet, mix with flat beater until all of the bread flour is wet. Let hydrate for 20 minutes, knead with the dough hook for 5 minutes, no more, on KA speed 2, while adjusting with water or bread flour to create a soft dough (cleans side of bowl, but tail is attached to bottom of bowl). Let rise at 80 F until doubled, 6 to 8 hours or more. Shape into a boule or batard and let rise at 80 deg, until almost doubled. (4 to 6 hours or more) Preheat baking stone and oven to 475 F. Slash loaves and load onto stone, mist or add steam, and let oven temp drop to 425 F. Bake at 425 F until internal temp is 195 to 205 F. The timeline for newly started sourdoughs is not well defined. If you should need a bit of sleep sometime during the bread making process you can put the dough in the fridge and continue the next day. However, sourdough yeasts can take a long time to "wake up" after a cold night in the fridge. If you maintain the starter and use it frequently it will develop a more predictable rhythm over time (basically it will teach you its schedule).. Werner --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v105.n012.2 --------------- From: lobo Subject: fluffy whole wheat sourdough bread Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 22:38:55 -0700 Last weekend, I made Jonathan's bread with a few changes. I bought some whole wheat and ground it in my coffee grinder, but I did use about half white flour. Next time I make it, I'll use more whole wheat and see how it goes. This was very good and kinda almost fluffy ... hearty, I'd call it : ) It rose beautifully. I hadn't used my sourdough for a couple months and fed it a few days prior to baking this. YUMMY! Thanks JK!!! JONATHAN'S DESEM LOAF MORNING: Mix together: walnut sized piece of sourdough starter 1/3 c whole wheat flour (I ground whole wheat in my coffee grinder) 2-3 T water (enough to create a softish dough) Let sit at room temp. EVENING: Add 1 c whole wheat flour 1/2 c water (or enough to make a softish dough) NEXT MORNING: Take out a walnut sized piece of starter from the above mixture and put it back in the frig for next time. Add enough flour to this small storage levain to firm it up to dough consistency. To remaining levain, add 2 c white flour 1 c whole wheat flour 1 1/2 t salt. 1 c water (to make a soft dough ...just past sticky) pinch of ascorbic acid 1 t honey Add fancy stuff like walnuts, cheese, or ground flax or seeds at this point. Knead in KitchenAid until it pulls away from the sides of the bowl. Let sit 4-5 hours at room temperature. "Stretch and fold" a couple times. Shape loaf (for me, this amount of dough made one regular bread pan and one smaller banana bread size pan). Proof 2-4 hours (or until doubled in size). Cold start baking at 425 F for 15 minutes. Then turn down to 350 F. Bake another 30 minutes or until done. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v105.n012.3 --------------- From: "Marilee Evans" Subject: Convection Ovens Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 15:12:42 -0600 This longtime lurker is about to join the ranks of downtown, highrise, condo dwellers. I have learned that the oven in my new apartment can function either as a conventional oven or as a convection oven. I think this subject has come up before, but I didn't have a convection oven in my future, then. I would love an answer--either on the lists, or as a personal e-mail--as to which type oven would be best for baking my sourdough baguettes. Also, this roomy oven has more shelf levels than I am accustomed to, and I wonder how using the convection technique affects your choice of shelf level. Thanks for your assistance, and keep that sourdough rising. Marilee --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v105.n012.4 --------------- From: "Allen Cohn" Subject: Report from Paris Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:14:18 -0800 I just came back from a trip to Paris. While there I sampled some of the local bread to see how it compares to what I can buy here in San Francisco and what I can make myself. First I went to Lionel Poilane, the shop that is by all accounts the most famous in all of France. I actually didn't expect to like his signature big round rustic loaf because it appears to include some whole grains and those just aren't my favorite. But I was wrong...it was so addictive that my girlfriend and I ruined our appetites for dinner. "A Food Lover's Guide to Paris" suggested that they are often willing to let visitors see the bakery floor. That sounded crazy to me, but I screwed up my courage and asked. They let us in. I snaked my down the narrow, winding staircase to find a "miniature" bakery out of a storybook. As we watched the baker shoveled more wood in the cramped oven. How do they crank out so much bread from that tiny space and tiny oven? I was hot and claustrophobic after just a few minutes! Next I sampled the baguette a l'ancienne of Philippe Gosselin. Yes, it was fabulous, but perhaps not as life-transforming as Peter Reinhart described it in "Bread Baker's Apprentice." Finally, I sampled the baguettes at Eric Kayser's shop in the 5th. They also had fabulous flavor and crust. Upon returning home, I sampled a lot of the local product to see how it compares. La Brea baguettes had great flavor, but the crust wasn't as good as Gosselin or Kayer. I think that's because they were not given enough cool down time after baking (they're mixed and partially baked at a central bakery, and then given a final baking at my local Whole Foods...so the bagging mistake is the local store's fault). Semifreddie's and Acme weren't as good. It's been a while since I've had the baguettes from Craig Ponsford's Artisan Bakers in Sonoma, but my recollection is that they were fully as good as the Parisian competitors. Overall, I noted that in Paris the streets are littered with little bakeries that make and sell their product in one location. In contrast, in my area the bread is made in central facilities, packaged, shipped and finally sold through specialty grocery stores. I suspect this extra handling and delay between baking and purchase does not help the quality. Finally, as good as the French bread was, it seemed to me that we should all be able get very, very close to it at home. I certainly have (inconsistently) gotten my rustic bread to taste as good. I haven't yet practiced on the baguette shape, but now I'm inspired to make that my next project. And lastly, just for fun, here are a few miscellaneous observations on Paris: * I found it especially ironic that what we call "French toast" they call "American toast." * Bring your wallet: the prices were astronomical, higher than I previously saw in Paris (and that's not even taking into account the unfavorable exchange rate). We paid ridiculous sums of money for guidebook-rated restaurants that turned out to have mediocre food (much worse than in San Francisco). However, a few times we got off the beaten path and found small, local restaurants with superior food (still not better than my home town) at less egregious prices. The most mind-boggling price gouging was the drinks we had the observation bar in the Concorde Layfayette Hotel. 20.50 Euros each. Throw in a modest tip and the exchange rate and we paid $45 for two drinks. That's a sobering thought. * The Metro is fabulous, but...it closes down far too early for the partying tourist and the musicians were so irritating. I think there should be an open season on musicians in the Metro, perhaps February-May. This may sound drastic, but thinning out the herd would entertain the tourists and provide peace and quiet for the residents. Allen --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v105.n012.5 --------------- From: "Jonathan Kandell" Subject: Re: fluffy whole wheat sourdough bread Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:06:39 -0700 Glad you liked and adapted the recipe Lobo. I encourage you to try more whole wheat flour, but make sure you use whole wheat bread flour, which is fine. You won't get the loaf as light as you seek if all the flour is ground in a coffee grinder. (I use my coffee grinder to make rye meal.) I agree "fluffy" isn't quite the right word for desem, but it does taste "light' even if you use 100% ww, because the sourdough and bacteria break down the harsher aspects of the bran over 32 hours or so. Jonathan --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v105.n012.6 --------------- From: FREDERICKA COHEN Subject: Maggie Glezer challah Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 05:04:37 -0800 (PST) On the cover of Maggie Glezer's wonderful book, A Blessing of Bread, there is a picture of a round challah. The same picture illustrates the recipe for "My Challah" on page 94. I have been through the book several times and I can't find the diagram. I am sure it has to be there because everything else is so carefully diagramed. Could someone out there please help me? I would very much like to produce that beauty! (Maggie, are reading?!?!) Thanks, Fredericka --------------- END bread-bakers.v105.n012 --------------- Copyright (c) 1996-2005 Regina Dwork and Jeffrey Dwork All Rights Reserved