Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 11:35:32 GMT -------------- BEGIN bread-bakers.v105.n049 -------------- 001 - "Allen Cohn" Subject: Re: mixing procedure question Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 15:51:47 -0800 Hi Lobo, I don't have or understand the complexities of Nancy Silverton's method. However, I have heard a few things that relate: * Since the fat of butter acts as a lubricant and thus inhibits gluten formation and development, my understanding is that most brioche recipes mix and knead all the flour for a while before the butter is added. This allows the creation of gluten networks despite the presence of so much butter. * Long pre-heating times are recommended so that the walls of the oven thoroughly heat. Yes, a thermometer reveals that the air in the oven heats up to 500 F in a quarter hour...but the walls have not. Why is this important? That's because there are three ways that heat energy gets into things: conduction, convection, and radiation. Conduction and convection are similar... Conduction is when a hot item (such as a pizza stone) touches a cooler one (like the bread dough). Convection is the hot air touching the cooler item. And radiation is electromagnetic radiation coming off the oven walls (all hot objects radiate...just like the hot filament of a light bulb) striking the food (just like a heat lamp). In a conversation with food science author Harold McGee, I asked him which of the three was "most important," i.e., transfered the most energy. He told me that it was complicated: at lower temperatures it was the first two. But as the temperature rises, the importance of radiation rises with the fifth power (!) of absolute temperature. The net-net is that above 300 F (or was it 350?) radiation becomes most important. (And note that these are the temperatures above with the Melliard (did I spell that right?) browning reaction takes place! Since bread is typically baked above these temperatures, then it's important to let the oven thoroughly heat up. Like half an hour. And if you use a pizza stone, those take so long to thoroughly "charge up" with heat energy, that you should let the oven heat for an hour. However, after saying all of that...I must say that I have achieved better results at home for loaf breads with the "cold start" method (see Reinhart's book and previous discussions here). (But my hearth breads do better in a thoroughly preheated oven on a pizza stone. Hope this helps, Allen San Francisco --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v105.n049.2 --------------- From: FREDERICKA COHEN Subject: heating a 500F degree oven Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 16:27:46 -0800 (PST) I hope this answers Lobo's question about heating the 500F degree oven for 1 hour. She offered to "bow to logic". I hope the answer is good enough to at least get a nod of the head. When your oven lets you know that the air temperature is 500F degrees, that 's all that it is. The temperature probe extending into the body of the oven recognizes that. However, the walls, floor, and top are not yet that temperature. The heat that will radiate from those walls after 15 minutes of heating has not yet reached anywhere near 500. One hour may seem a bit much but every second of those 45 minutes is needed. Lest you think I am passing on an oldwives' tale....like don't breathe when there is a sponge cake in the oven....I got this from the chief of the Maytag service department who checked my new range when I claimed that there was a problem with the thermostat. I'll let someone else explain the dynamics of hydration and the flour! I'm sure it will be delicious! Fredericka --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v105.n049.3 --------------- From: Joe Tilman Subject: mixing procedure question Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 16:29:58 -0800 (PST) The mixing method isn't so much a matter of taste, it is a matter of making a yeasted bread that needs excellent gluten formation in order to support a HUGE amount of fat and "other" stuff. Fats prevent gluten formation -- small amounts, no big deal, but 9 ounces is a LOT in a loaf. You can make the brioche the way you otherwise would, but the amount of fat and eggs mixed in up front will prevent an adequate amount of gluten formation, and you will end up with a rather squat, cake-like loaf (at best) rather than bread. I don't have that book in particular, but it should also be putting particular emphasis on keeping the dough cool (well below the melting point of butter) for the incorporation of the butter, or you will have pools of butter. The eggs go in before the butter in order for the lecithin to work it's emulsifying magic when the butter arrives. I would have hoped at least some of that is in the book, but if not, may I recommend Shirley Corriher's "Cookwise" for an excellent, readable discourse on this very subject. As for the 500F oven, have you moved your thermometer around? Are you sure you have no significant hot or cold spots in your oven? I'd say an hour is a bit overkill, but a long preheat helps even hot and cold spots in most ovens by insuring all the firebrick and metal are at operating temp. HTH Joe --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v105.n049.4 --------------- From: Laura Locklin Subject: Bread in Paris Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 20:56:42 -0800 (PST) Poilane in London? I wish I had known that last year and this! In 2002 my then 12 year old granddaughter and I rented an apartment on Place Monge in Paris. Our building's courtyard opened on to Place Monge in the front and Rue Mouffetard in the rear. We made several pilgrimages to Poilane on the metro.....in fact we brought back some of his butter cookies for Bob, the Tarheel Baker who posts here. The bread wouldn't travel well to the U.S. but the cookies did. Rue Monge was pretty close by.....but we didn't know about the boulangerie there. Last summer and this summer we spent quite a bit of time in London....and we would happily have chased down London's Poilane. Another excuse to return to one of our favorite cities. Laura --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v105.n049.5 --------------- From: Tarheel_Boy@webtv.net (Skallywagg ...) Subject: Saying "Thank you" will reap wonderful benefits... Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 19:03:23 -0500 I totally agree, Gonzo. There are many questions asked and answered in this wonderful forum provided to us without charge by Reggie and Jeff. We do indeed owe them and the question-answerers a very large debt of gratitude. I've corresponded with many of the people on this list and, as a result, have not only made many good friends but have started my own little internet cooking group called "Cooks Reward" made up of several people from this terrific list. The joys of baking and cooking have welded us into a remarkable circle of friends. An aside to Diane, the "bread gallivanter": I hope you find some good bread in Venice. The last time I was there I dined at a restaurant on the Grand Canal. The bread was hard and stale and I asked the waiter to replace it with some that was bit fresher. After all, you pay for the bread even if you don't order it. The surly waiter said that was all they had so I tossed it, basket and all, into the water saying that perhaps that would soften it a bit. Ugly American? I don't think so because I saw other waiters bring baskets of steaming bread from the kitchen. Bob the Tarheel Baker --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v105.n049.6 --------------- From: Popthebaker@aol.com Subject: Lobo's mixing procedure question Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 12:06:36 EST It seems that some authors seem make a process very complex when it is really a simple one and I believe this is often to make their book unique rather than to convey necessary procedures. If the process you use will give the desired results then, by all means, use it. My personal preference is to combine the dry ingredients then add and incorporate the liquid ingredients. I will combine eggs, oil, and water to form an emulsion before adding to dry. As for oven preheat, I routinely use a baking stone so a long (45-60 minute) preheat is necessary to bring the 3/4 inch stone to temperature to properly brown the bottom crust. Even if no stone is used preheating is helpful to bring the oven walls to temperature which reduces the temperature drop when inserting the loaves since the interior is acting as a heat sink. Also, the oven uses an on/off cycle and is not as energy consuming as one might think. If you check you will see the elements are not on all the time. Also, the author may be using one hour as a stylized rather than absolute number to insure adequate preheating. Pop --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v105.n049.7 --------------- From: "joyce erlitz" Subject: rice bread Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 14:13:16 -0500 to the person who asked about rice bread, and to whom i mentioned elizabeth david: i had some left over rice and i decided to use it to make the above mentioned rice bread. it is wonderful! it's on p. 209 of my copy of "english bread and yeast cookery", new american edition, biscuit books, Inc. of newton Ma. i hope everyone enjoys it as much as i am. joyce non, je ne regrette rien --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v105.n049.8 --------------- From: "Chalon, Grace" Subject: Breadman machine has never produced results Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 10:34:03 -0600 Hi, I've posted before about problems with my Breadman machine. With my old R2-D2 bread maker, I tossed everything in, set it and every loaf came out wonderful. I have had this machine about 3 years, and have tried different yeasts, measured ingredients and temperatures carefully, place the machine in different locations, tried the machine in different seasons, and I have had only 1 loaf that rose and baked beautifully. The rest just never rise and bake into a hard dense brick. I've had lots of encouragement from everyone, but I think I just got a lemon. Any suggestions? Thanks, Grace --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v105.n049.9 --------------- From: "Barrie J. Lax" Subject: Re: Mixing procedure question Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:42:53 -0500 Lobo's remarks made me laugh. Years ago (more than I care to remember) I used to follow recipes to the letter, particularly 'baking' recipes, be they cakes or breads. I then got fed up and began simplifying, Big Surprise, little changed, in fact the end result was sometimes better! I agree. I wonder just what some recipe composers have in mind other than to make the recipe look more complicated than need be and different perhaps from the 'mother' recipe it was drawn from. Perhaps also it makes them feel more professional when including extra steps and compelling detail. I am a simplifier by nature, simply don't have time to spend on long or involved recipes. If they really intrigue me, I start off by cutting them to the bone and working up from there if need be. All bread type recipes I run in my Zo or Cuisinart, no matter how involved the original. All actual baking however I do in the oven. Follow your logic Mr. Lobo, be you apple or wolf, and more power to you. bar. Barrie J. Lax Ottawa, Ontario Canada --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v105.n049.10 --------------- From: "Mary Fisher" Subject: Re: mixing question Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 21:48:18 -0000 Lobo, I'm so very pleased to hear of someone else who asks 'Why?' The problem is that it's always seen as being challenging, as though I'm saying that someone is wrong. I'm not, I just want to know the reason ... It's a good job we don't live in the times when we'd literally have lost our heads ... Mary --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v105.n049.11 --------------- From: lobo Subject: RE: Silverton Raisin Brioche Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 18:41:39 -0700 The raisin brioche came out lovely, sorta .... she calls the crust browned, I call it burned and am cutting it off! Thanks to those who responded to my mixing procedure question. I flipped through the whole book last night and find that almost all her recipes call for baking at an oven heated at 500 for an hour and then reduced to 450F, plus a lot of spritzing of water into the oven. Is there a better/easier way? .... pans of water in the oven? And a lower temp/different amount of time so the crust doesn't burn? Quite frankly, the bread's not worth it. It's soft and nice looking, but pretty bland. It needs cinnamon or more salt or something to add some flavor. Does anyone have a good cinnamon/raisin bread recipe? TIA! Lobo --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v105.n049.12 --------------- From: FREDERICKA COHEN Subject: need honey wheat recipe Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 06:54:46 -0800 (PST) Thanks to our Tarheel Baker who adapted the famous Millie's whole wheat bread machine challah recipe, I have been successfuly producing it via my KitchenAid stand mixer for about 2 years. I also make it in a loaf pan for great sandwiches. Now I (and a grandson!) would like an additional honey wheat recipe with a stronger wheat flavor. Any suggestions would be welcome. For those not familiar with the recipe, it uses 2 cups of all purpose flour and 1 cup of whole wheat pastry flour. The result is a delicious albeit delicate flavor. Please feel to contact me offline as well as the forum. Many thanks, Fredericka --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v105.n049.13 --------------- From: Edwin Young Subject: recipe request: soft fluffy focaccia Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 14:41:46 -0800 ok, so maybe this isn't what focaccia is suppose to be but growing up in san francisco, i remember my grandmother bringing us warm soft fluffy focaccia from liguria bakery in north beach. the focaccia was soft and, dare i say, doughy. i must've tried a dozen different recipes over the years and still can't replicate this. anyone have a recipe or ideas on how to make this? thanks! --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v105.n049.14 --------------- From: lobo Subject: thank yous Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 16:13:47 -0700 I send thank-yous to people who answer my questions ... but privately, just to them, because I think all the thank-yous required to the wonderful people on this list would clutter the list way too much. Just MHO ... Lobo --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v105.n049.15 --------------- From: "Leigh" Subject: Saying thank you Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 15:18:38 -0800 First, agree wholeheartedly on the thanks to Reggie and Jeff, without whom this list wouldn't exist. Second, my experience has been that this is a great group for expressing appreciation for recipes and tips. Any time I've posted a suggestion or a recipe in response to a request on the listserv, the recipient has thanked me privately for doing so and generally writes back again later to tell me how it has turned out. Most listservs request that people send emails like "Thank you" or "me too" privately to avoid cluttering up the listserv with messages that add volume but not topic related substance. (I am on one listserv that sends out that reminder almost weekly.) The private thanks is exactly what has happened when I've responded to a request. I am sorry if that hasn't been your experience. Leigh --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v105.n049.16 --------------- From: "Sonia Martinez" Subject: Favorite Holiday Bread Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 13:29:06 -1000 For the last three years my favorite Holiday bread has been one shared by MLroses@webtv.net - Mahalo again MaryLou! Wishing everyone a very Happy Holiday Season! Mele Kalikimaka a me Hauoli Makahiki Hou! - Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! Sonia \m/ DRIED CHERRY-ALMOND BREAD 1 cup plus 2 TB milk 1 Tablespoon butter 1 teaspoon orange zest 4 teaspoons sugar 1 large egg 1 teaspoon salt 3 cups bread flour 2 teaspoons bread machine yeast 1/2 cup dried cherries 1/3 cup slivered almonds-toasted ML's instructions: This is the order in which I add ingredients (follow machines directions.) I do however, add 1/2 of the cherries//almonds WITH the flour, and 1/2 at the BEEP. ABM..1-1/2 lb loaf..Basic cycle..Light crust (this can be baked in the oven) YIELD: 1 1-1/2 lb loaf SOURCE: "Bread Machine Favorites" by Fleischmann's Yeast --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v105.n049.17 --------------- From: Reggie Dwork Subject: Thanks for the thanks Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 03:25:16 -0800 We send our thanks out to all of you for giving us the joy of running this list. You're the ones that make it happen. If you do send thanks to someone, please do it off the list unless you have something to add, in which case please do send it to the list. Reggie & Jeff --------------- END bread-bakers.v105.n049 --------------- Copyright (c) 1996-2006 Regina Dwork and Jeffrey Dwork All Rights Reserved