Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:38:23 GMT -------------- BEGIN bread-bakers.v106.n023 -------------- 001 - "Michael Arnoldi" Subject: Mixer woes Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 05:18:41 -0400 For a sturdier type mixer, look at a HOBART that's a commercial version of the kitchen aid. Chef Arnoldi --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n023.2 --------------- From: "Werner Gansz" Subject: Stand Mixers Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 07:37:41 -0400 Our Kitchen Aid died a few months ago and we replaced it with a Viking. It is a powerful mixer and will handle all large home-baked bread recipes. Its dough hook is also more aggressive than KA's and will quickly mix flour and liquid without using the beater first if that's what the recipe calls for. The KA always seemed to create an impenetrable sidewall of dry flour. The height of the beater and dough hook are adjustable so you can set the gap between them and the bowl to be very small. All of the standard attachments are available. Rear castors make it easy to move around the counter. The only drawbacks to the Viking so far are that it makes an awful screeching noise when running and the beater and dough hook do not lock in place with a detent so they occasionally rotate out the head when scraping dough from them. We also looked at the Magic Mill but it was just too big for home baking. It really isn't designed to make small (3 cup) batches. The Viking handles small batches fine. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n023.3 --------------- From: "Rasch, Edgar" Subject: Panera baguette question Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 07:06:44 -0500 Thanks to Roxanne for her posting on April 10, 2006, "Re: Why three rises?", with her description of how the delicious Panera artisan breads are prepared commercially. Is this same process used by Panera (previously sold by the St. Louis Bread Co.) in preparation of the light airy baguette loaf? Edgar St. Louis --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n023.4 --------------- From: Roel Wyman Subject: Re: Kitchenaid mixer Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 08:13:33 -0400 Erik, I've been using my Kitchenaid stand mixer for 31 years without a problem. Have them replace this particular lemon with another and you should have no problem. Roel --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n023.5 --------------- From: "Bev C" Subject: Kitchenaid repairs and better mixer Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 07:28:45 -0500 Erik wrote requesting an alternate mixer for his bread, and recounted his horror stories of KitchenAid. While I agree with him that the mixers aren't what they used to be, I was quite surprised with the lack of customer service. I am currently on my third of the new mixers. The first one just quit ­ no reason I know of. The second one also quit but I suspect in this case it was because we were using the vegetable puree attachment. Liquid was backing up into the motor and poof ­ it was history. For each of the above-named problems, I was sent an immediate replacement machine ­ KitchenAid's warranty calls for that ­ an immediate replacement, none of those repairs that stretch out forever. Each replacement machine starts the warranty period all over again. I am sorry to say that we no longer use our KitchenAid attachments. We used to use a grain mill but the process was so hard on the mixer (and so slow), we bought a stand-alone mill. We also used to use the food mill attachment a LOT ­ now I notice that this product is no longer included in their advertised "attachment pack". With the new mixers, apparently food backs up into the machine, although the company vehemently denies that. Well, except for one person we spoke with who said that we needed to cook the tomatoes first and couldn't push them through, rather let the auger bring them down. Well the auger doesn't work like that, the instruction book says the tomatoes can be raw, and what's the purpose of the wooden push tool if not to help the product along to the auger. So we bought a stand-alone food mill as well. I "do" still use my KitchenAid but only for occasional quick breads, cakes or cookies. But the expensive attachments (over $250 retail) languish. A word of note on those "wide-bowl" mixers. Indeed, it is much easier to pour ingredients into the bowl ­ but the bowl needs to be scraped! Never had that problem with my old KitchenAid - which still works but that's a whole nuther story! Bev C --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n023.6 --------------- From: rokzane@comcast.net Subject: RE: Grape Nuts bread Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 13:38:40 +0000 Mary Fisher wrote: >But I thought that Grape Nuts were made with ground/pelleted bread >so we'll be making bread with bread, not with other grains ... It's >also interesting that no yeast is used. That makes me wonder about >the definition of 'bread', Roxanne's recipe sounds more like a cake. >But I SHALL try it - and report. The ingredients list on the box says "cracked whole wheat" so the cracked wheat may be somewhat cooked, but I don't think the cereal is actually bread... Grape Nuts is a high fiber, whole grain cereal with a good nutritional punch to it--that's why I like using it. And the recipe IS a quick bread (chemical levening, no yeast), and the person I was responding to with this recipe asked for whole grain quick bread recipes. I'm glad that those who are using it or tried it find it so yummy :) I certainly do! Thanks to all who sent me private thank-yous, that was really nice! Roxanne --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n023.7 --------------- From: rokzane@comcast.net Subject: Re: Grapenuts bread Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 13:44:54 +0000 Hi Jerry, Since you are using Egg-beaters (no fat, all protein= drier bread), I would suggest subbing some of the splenda/sugar with unsweatened applesauce. This will supply much needed moisture while at the same time mimicking what fat provides in quick breads. I would probably start with 1/2 cup of apple sauce for 1/2 cup of splenda. You can also dry subbing some of the liquid for fat free or low fat sour cream or plain yoghurt. Quick breads are really forgiving for playing around with. Roxanne :) --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n023.8 --------------- From: rokzane@comcast.net Subject: RE: Mixer Woes Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 13:52:07 +0000 Hi Erik, I have had the same problem with a 2003 Kitchen Aid (the Artisan Model). I switched to an Electrolux after about a year of hasseling with the kitchen-aid. I love the electrolux. It is amazing for bread and cookie doughs, but doens't do so well with cake batters and whipping things like egg whites and whipping cream. I have also read that the De Longhi is an excellent machine. For cake batters and such, I went on e-bay and found an old Hobart Kitchen-aid (Kitchen-Aid was the best on the market when Hobart was making them from about 1965- to the mid-80s). I won it for about 150 dollars. I have that machine for about 2 years, and it's taken just everything I've thrown at it. :) Good Luck, Roxanne --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n023.9 --------------- From: "Sandy Krause" Subject: re: mixer woes Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 09:53:59 -0400 Erik, Bosch! I have a Bosch Universal mixer and can't even begin to tell you how wonderful it is. I got rid of my KitchenAid because it just wasn't nearly powerful enough for anything but a 1 lb sandwich bread loaf. The Bosch sounds a bit like a jet engine taking off, but if you aren't too concerned about the noise it is wonderful. Sandy --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n023.10 --------------- From: "qahtan" Subject: Re: Mixer woes Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 12:00:28 -0400 My word to you would be DLX Assistant. Check it out... qahtan --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n023.11 --------------- From: "Mary Fisher" Subject: Re: Digest bread-bakers.v106.n022 Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 18:52:56 +0100 There are so many things I want to reply to in this digest! >From: "bryan carmenati" >Subject: Italian Bread > >This is a delicious - ciabatta type bread using a corn meal mash. It sounds excellent - but why BOTTLED water? >From: Popthebaker@aol.com > >... Peter Reinhart explains in The Bread Baker's Apprentice that his >use of the term Barm is a personal one. It is an Old English term >for a sourdough type starter. No, it's the old word for fresh yeast here and still used in some parts of England and Scotland (and Wales and Ireland for all I know) by some older people. Including me! >From: "Mary Fisher" >Subject: Grape Nuts bread > >... >Today I made a bread using barley meal, it's still too hot to try >but I'm looking forward to tasting it tomorrow. I used about half >and half strong white wheat flour. It was excellent! But it took some time to prove. I wonder if anyone has a dedicated and used recipe for barley bread? >From: yguaba@yahoo.com.br >Subject: Mixer woes I used a standard sized Kenwood for about thirty years but when it eventually died and was beyond Spouse's tender repair skills I invested in a Kenwood Major so that I could make a larger amount of dough. I've abused it for about seven years. The motor has, very occasionally, tripped when I've left it running for a l-o-n-g time and it's overheated, otherwise there have been absolutely no problems. I've mixed 4lbs of dough for twenty or more minutes (before I moved to stretch 'n' fold!) at speeds above 3. The liquidiser is used to mince meat and to break down ice and nuts as well as gentler processes. The only problem is that it has a large footprint but even in my small kitchen it's worth it. I wouldn't be without it - it's permanently on the counter and plugged in. Mary --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n023.12 --------------- From: Debunix Subject: Re: Mixer woes Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 16:16:45 -0500 I wonder how much of that is cheapening the parts and design, because so many of us have decades-old models that are still doing the job. I never made more than two loaves at once in mine, but it nothing ever snapped on it. And it's never seen a repair shop. My father had good luck for many years with a large Kenwood machine, but a quite different alternative is to use a food processor. You need a sturdy one with a large mixing bowl. I make virtually all my breads in my 14-cup Cuisinart, but it will only do one loaf at a time. I adapt the various recipes to the basic procedure outlined very clearly in "The Best Bread Ever" by Charles Van Over. The quick versions is to put all the dry ingredients in the bowl together, with the metal blade (not the plastic dough blade!), using instant yeast with the dry ingredients, then with the motor running, add all the liquid ingredients at once. Let a dough form, turn off the processor and let the dough rest for 5-15 minutes while the flour takes up the liquid (the "hydrolyse"). Turn the processor back on and mix about 45 seconds. Pause and adjust the flour/water if needed during this 45 seconds, and add any butter or solid fats towards the end. Wait until the last 10-15 seconds to mix in any solids like nuts or fruits. Turn out onto a floured board and shape & let rise as you normally do. The keys to this are to use COLD liquids--water from the refrigerator or ice water--so the intense fast mix won't overheat the final dough and kill the yeast; to use instant yeast with the dry ingredients although I've also had good results using sourdough starters if they were dissolved first into the cold liquid ingredients); and to be careful about the timing until you're comfortable with the technique, because it is very easy to overknead. Diane Brown in St. Louis http://www.well.com/user/debunix/recipes/FoodPages.html --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n023.13 --------------- From: "Mary Flack" Subject: Stand Mixers Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 18:59:49 -0500 Hi Erik, You asked for suggestion for a good stand mixer. See the article in Cooks Illustrated - Nov-Dec 2005 they did a lot of testing on stand mixers. I too wanted to upgrade my old KA mixer. My problem was the height of the machines. I wanted mine to fix under my cabinets. After much research I choose a Delonghi DSM5. It is a 5 qt. machine. They also make a 7 qt. that I found just to big. It was very hard to find and I ended up purchasing in on Ebay. I have been very happy with it. I have made several heavy breads and my German Stollen (3 loves). The only thing I do not care for is that the bowl is hard to clean on the bottom where it locks on to the machine. (KA is better here). The way I get around the problem is to not set the bowl in dish water. I just hand wash the bowl (It can go in the dishwasher). I love the shape of the bowl - it is easy to add to and to scrape down. It is a work horse. Good luck. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n023.14 --------------- From: Caroline Rumsey Subject: Re. Mixer Woes Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 22:17:58 -0400 Hi, I've been a lurker for several months; I finally have something to offer. Erik, I went through the same search you're going through. I burned out a KitchenAid on bread dough. Cooks Illustrated recently explained the mystery of high-wattage mixers that have no power - ignore the wattage ratings; they don't tell you a thing about how well a mixer will perform. We found that out the hard way, and went through six mixers before we finally found the Hobart N-50, which handles my multi-grain dough (dry ingredients are 50% seeds and whole grains, 50% flour) without flinching. I recently bought a spiral dough hook that's sold for the new KA 6-qt; I find it develops the gluten better than the standard 'J' hook does, though the 'J' hook handles smaller batches of dough better (my spiral hook is coated - that may be its problem with small batches). It was expensive (the prices range from $500 - $1600 depending on age, condition and source), but we wouldn't think of getting rid of it. There are probably other mixers out there that are as good, but in my opinion, if you want to make bread in "home-size" batches, this one will do the job without breaking down. Caroline Rumsey --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n023.15 --------------- From: "Anita" Subject: Re: Mixer woes Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:47:28 -0700 Erik: A Bosch will do your job nicely. I have both and use the Kitchen Aid for cakes, whipping cream etc. but for bread and especially whole grain (heavy) breads, the Bosch kitchen machine is the best. You can buy accessories for it like a grain mill (the best, and it grinds right into your bowl), a blender, processor etc. My batch makes 5 loaves of whole grain bread, no problem. Bought it used on EBay, check them out. Anita --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n023.16 --------------- From: francinemorin@netscape.net Subject: Mixer woes Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 09:33:23 -0400 Hi Erik, I had pretty much the same problem then you with KA ( I didn't say the word...). so in January 2005 I was looking for a stronger mixer. There was the Viking 7-Quart Mixer with 1000 watts of power, but the price then was $500 at the Baker's Catalog and everywhere else. I also found the Delonghi DSM7 Stand Mixer at 980 watts. After a little internet search I found it on pricegrabber (nice "comparison price" site) at $319.99 at etronics.com (I just did a little search before writing this message and both are more expensive now but the Delonghi is still cheaper on pricegrabber ($319.99-$630.00). I have been using it since January 2005. I did pretty much all the recipes in The Bread Baker's Apprentice, by Peter Reinhart and other... even with the stiffest dough (bagels...) it works well and I am happy with it. I think a commercial Hobart will be great but then at this price I'll have to open a bakery... Francine --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n023.17 --------------- From: "Schmitt, Barbara E." Subject: Re: Mixer woes Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 10:12:35 -0400 Erik, I have a 4 qt. KitchenAid that I got in 1984, and it is still going strong. This is the smaller model from that era, and I have made many, many batches of bread in it with nary a complaint. The key is to get one of the old ones, when they were still made by Hobart. These show up on eBay regularly, and the sellers know the difference that the Hobart name makes, so they include it in the description (and often include a picture showing the Hobart name on the side of the mixer head). I recommend that you find one of these old workhorses, used. They never really die. Alternatively, has anyone tried the Viking mixer that King Arthur is selling? Barbara --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n023.18 --------------- From: "Brett Baker" Subject: RE: Grape Nuts bread Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 10:06:57 -0500 Hi Mary, I'm with you, Grape Nuts is a great way to start your day. But have you ever tried hot Grape Nuts? Many years ago, 1960 to be exact, I was working as a project engineer supervising construction in about half a dozen different locations throughout the New England states. That required me to travel extensively throughout the area. One day while traveling down the coast of Maine I stopped in a tiny restaurant for breakfast. I think it was in the town of Searsport but for the life of me I'll never remember the name of the restaurant. Anyhow, the waitress mentioned that they served hot Grape Nuts. I was intrigued so I ordered it. It merely consisted of a bowl of the cereal over which she poured boiling water then served it piping hot with cream and sugar on the side. The boiling water causes the cereal to melt down into a delightful porridge that is absolutely delicious and I've made it ever since. Since then I've refined the recipe by simply adding cold milk to the cereal then popping it into the microwave until the milk boils. Let it sit a couple minutes, sweeten and enjoy. If you've never tried this please do. If you like the flavor of Grape Nuts you'll love this, especially on a cold winter morning. Brett --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n023.19 --------------- From: "Brett Baker" Subject: Re: Mixer woes Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 10:35:44 -0500 Hi Erik, Welcome to the club. I too had KitchenAid stand mixer problems. Not motor problems but gear problems. It seamed that when it got tired of working so hard it would just strip out its little gears and take a break, no pun intended. I was able to repair it myself, but with no help from the manufacturer. They refused to sell me the parts so I had to purchase them from a local authorized repair facility that was about as friendly as an enraged scorpion. One cold February day 2002, the King Arthur flour caravan came to our town and put on a school. I noticed that they were using Bosch mixers so after the class I inquired. The lady who conducted the class told me that she had a preference for the Bosch machines and recommended them highly. A week later I had a brand new Bosch Concept7 mixer sitting on my counter. I've used that machine at least two times a week ever since. I've made recipes from six cups of flour to twelve cups of flour and it never missed a beat. In fact, it performs better with the heavier load. I've made plain white bread and the stiffest rye breads and it never even whimpers under the burden. The only way you'd get that machine away from me is to pry it out of my cold dead hands. Brett --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n023.20 --------------- From: Mike Subject: Mixer Woes Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:54:46 -0700 (PDT) Erik, I can recommend the Magic Mill Assistent or go for broke and buy a Hobart. I have the Magic Mill. It has a large capacity and it is a down and out work horse. Go online and check it out. Nothing but praises about it. It has a slight learning curve but once you get the hang of it you'll be mixing dough till it comes out of your ears.You're days of worrying about breakdowns will be over. Kitchenaid was a decent choice way back when but now they stink. I wouldn't buy one for mixing hot and cold water together! Good luck to you. M.F. A loud mouth is often nothing more than an echo from an empty head --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n023.21 --------------- From: Roxanne Rieske Subject: Taking bread dough on an airplane Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 00:45:47 -0600 So this may be an odd question... Does anyone have any experience with taking raw bread dough on an airplane? I'll be flying into Indianapolis from Denver on June 27 (going to see family) and I want to bring a batch of cinn. bun dough for next days breakfast. I want to make the dough before I leave because Mom doesn't own a stand mixer, and it's really tough on my wrists to knead by hand. So, do airlines frown on dough carrying passengers? I'll be flying American Airlines and want to know if there is a threat of having my dough confiscated. I figure I'll cut back on the yeast a bit and keep the dough chilled until I leave for the airport. The combination of air conditioning in the airports and on the plane should keep it from rising too fast, and the recipe I use usually takes all day to rise anyway. Any advice would be appreciated :) Roxanne [[ Editor's note: I think air pressure will be a big problem. If my calculations are correct, the typical air pressure in Denver is about 20% lower than sea level. FAA rules require cabin pressure to be no less than pressure at 8000 feet, which is about 40% below sea level pressure. So the bubbles in the dough will expand by 20% and then be compressed by 40%. I don't think it will be very happy. Can you freeze the dough and pack it in dry ice? - Jeff ]] --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n023.22 --------------- From: "linda grande" Subject: Mixer woes Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 14:23:59 +0000 Erik, Have a look at both the Bosch line of mixers and the Magic Mill made by Electrolux. I've used the Bosch Concept and I own a Magic Mill...they are both excellent, much more efficient than my older Kitchen Aid made by Hobart. When it comes to bread-making, the Kitchen Aid is a toy (IMHO). Lindag --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n023.23 --------------- From: "Mike Scott" Subject: Re Peter Reinhart's pain a l'ancienne recipe Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 18:01:51 -0400 Hi, Has anyone tried substituting whole wheat flour in pain a l'ancienne? If yes, can anyone share their results with me? Thanks, Mike Scott Toronto, Canada --------------- END bread-bakers.v106.n023 --------------- Copyright (c) 1996-2006 Regina Dwork and Jeffrey Dwork All Rights Reserved