Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 07:07:08 GMT -------------- BEGIN bread-bakers.v106.n048 -------------- 001 - serene Subject: Re: No Knead Bread Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 00:07:11 -0800 "D. Beeckler" wrote: >I hate to post such bad news since there were so many good reports >about the No Knead Bread. I tried it and it was awful. Perhaps I >did something incorrectly. Only everything. :-) >I used white-wheat flour and a little extra yeast (because how could >1/4 tsp be enough :). I noticed there was no sugar at all - what >feeds those little yeasties? - So I added some - not much. Now go try it according to the directions, and let us know how it goes. I've made it a dozen times, and it's perfect every time. Serene --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n048.2 --------------- From: debunix Subject: Re: No Knead Bread Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 02:27:00 -0600 >#1 I used rapid rise yeast, it works every where else, why not here, >#2 How can you handle already risen dough and put it in a hot pan >and #3 Shouldn't there be some sugar or some other sweet in it? You used rapid rise yeast which is not the same as instant, more yeast, plus sweetener--you turbocharged the yeast activity in what should be a very slow process, so the yeast did their work too soon, and the dough became overproofed and alcoholic, and no amount of baking can repair that. Trust the recipe as given: the tiny bit of yeast works perfectly fine, just slowly, when feeding only on flour and having to break down complex sugars into what it prefers to eat. It is that very slowness that gives the flavor time to develop and deepen, so speeding it up with sugar or more yeast is counterproductive. And the transfer of the risen dough to the hot pan is tricky, but easy enough if the rising surface was very well covered with bran/ cornmeal/semolina etc so that hte dough doesn't stick to it, and you don't try to be neat about it. Just flop it on in to the hot pot, don't panic as it partially deflates or hits the edge of the pan, it will poof back up again and taste ok even if irregularly shaped. --diane in st. louis http://www.well.com/user/debunix/recipes/FoodPages.html --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n048.3 --------------- From: "Russell Fletcher \(PastorDIC\)" Subject: re: sourdough Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 02:19:50 -0800 I ended up buying King Arthur's starter and it arrived a couple days ago. In the morning I will be baking Mike Avery's Blueberry Sourdough Muffins. Then I will be converting a portion of the sourdough starter to whole wheat. Boy, the house smells wonderfully like sourdough! Russ Russell Fletcher pastordic@gmail.com Battle Ground, WA http://pastordic.blogspot.com/ +++++ From: "Katie Kondo" >Anyways, moral of the story is, find a good artisan bakery in your >area and just ask them for some. Too late. Thanks though! +++++ From: jbr2.bread-bakers@xemaps.com >If you only waited a total of ten hours then this is your >problem! Starting up a sourdough starter takes days not hours. Just >be patient and follow the instructions that should have been >provided with the starter which should include several refreshments >over a period of several days. I didn't wait just 10 hours, I waited something like 4 days by the time it went in the garbage. I followed the instructions and didn't get a single bubble. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n048.4 --------------- From: jweissmn@his.com Subject: Re: no knead bread questions Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 07:27:25 -0500 With regard D. Beckler's no knead bread questions: It might be a good idea to try the recipe as written (including raising it outside the freezer) and then vary it. 1) I tried rapid rise yeast in it after having success with regular yeast. The no knead version just didn't work. 2) the video on the Times website shows how to put the risen dough into a hot pan. Essentially you flip it off the towel, or slide it off the peel. 3) Lots and lots of bread recipes have no sugar and taste just fine. The yeast feeds on the. Baguettes, for one. Also, nobody has reported success with 100% whole wheat, even white whole wheat. Try it with about 1/3 whole wheat, and if that works, go up from there. Finally, this recipe just does not give consistent results, at least not for me and my baking friends. Some of the loaves are extraordinary, Many are pretty good, and some are duds. Even the duds are fun to make and better than some store bread. So my suggestion is to try again, following the recipe procedure as given but using 1/3 white whole wheat if you want to. The video has a lower amount of water (one and a half cups) than the printed recipe, and that may hel\p. See what you get then. - Jessica Weissman --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n048.5 --------------- From: "Werner Gansz" Subject: Re: no knead bread Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 09:07:26 -0500 I am sure that you will get lots of responses to your post about No Knead Bread. White bread is flour, water, yeast and salt. I don't know where you got the idea that there has to be sugar. There is plenty of food in flour, that's why we eat it. Adding sugar to a baguette dough in France would get you stood up in front of a firing squad. The whole point of this bread is a slow rise with little yeast. Rapid rise is for rapid rising. It was probably spent two hours after you started. The slow rise probably goes through 3 lifetimes for the yeast. The yeast you bake with are the grandchildren of the yeast you started with. The are lots more grandchildren than there are grandparents. The logistics of getting the dough into the hot pot was apparently left for the students to figure out. I cut a piece of parchment paper fit to the bottom of the pot, put some corn meal on a peel, then the parchment paper on the peel and dumped the risen dough upside down onto the parchment paper, then held the peel over the hot pot and pulled back and prayed. It plopped right in. Plan B is to put the parchment paper under the dough as it rises (line the bowl with the paper), then put it right side up onto the peel. The finished loaf would look prettier that way. I suggest doing the recipe as written one time with the ingredients listed, then try making changes. Werner --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n048.6 --------------- From: Ellen Lee Subject: No-Knead Bread Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 09:23:51 -0500 D. Beeckler: I hope you'll give the recipe another try. Many bread recipes don't include sugar; the carbohydrate in flour feeds the yeasties, as it does in sourdough. I made the bread according to the recipe and Bittman's notes, although I started out with reservations. I used half bread flour and half whole wheat flour, and I used 3/4 tsp. yeast because my house temperature is under 70 F in winter. I expected the slack, wet dough to be sticky and messy after the 18-hour resting period. I dumped the dough onto a floured board and gingerly did the fold over a couple of times bit. It had an almost soft and silky, not a sticky texture. My hands stayed clean. I baked it in a 4-quart Calphalon Dutch oven (lightly oiled, with the excess oil wiped off with a paper towel), but I'll try other pans: a regular bread pan and a 9"x13" baking pan, with an aluminum foil cover the first 30 minutes of baking. I think it would make a wonderful focaccia. It literally is the easiest, least time consuming, in terms of labor, bread I ever have made. It has a texture I tried and failed to achieve previously. If you have eaten a crumpet, it's similar to that: moist, chewy, full of small holes to soak up butter (or Smart Balance) and jam if you want to add it - but with a crisp, crackling crust. It makes wonderful toast, too. I sliced it and froze the slices in plastic sandwich bags; freezing does not affect the texture, and it thaws in minutes. Although I'll continue to use my old tried-and-true recipes, no-knead bread joins the tried-and-true list. Ellen Lee --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n048.7 --------------- From: "Margaret G. Cope" Subject: No Knead again.. Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 09:26:18 -0500 Sorry. to D. Breckler for his/her problems. I have made it 5 times now and it is superb...fabulous as I said before. I follow the directions...and use the SAF dry yeast as directed. I use KA bread flour though I have made it with KA regular. I have added a 1/2 cup of whole wheat flour as well as a little sour dough starter and that worked just fine. I let it rise 18 hours at room temp (70 F in my kitchen). The towels need to be liberally floured and I top it with abit of corn meal. I now bake it in a 2-3 quart Anchor Hocking glass bowl purchased last week at Ocean State Job Lots for $2.00 with a pyrex lid that I have. It comes out just perfectly. I had baked it in a larger pottery bowl but it was cracking more than it already had before I baked in it. A Pyrex clear glass bowl would work too but I don't have one and I can't find one up here in the north country. The dumping is problematic but I slide a wooden peel under the towel, carry it to the oven (I use the lower one because I am short) and push the mass into the bowl with a metal bench scaper. A little might stick but most ends up in the bowl and quickly cover it with the pyrex lid. I assume the flour feeds the yeast. Happy New Year to everyone. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n048.8 --------------- From: "Allen Cohn" Subject: Re: No Knead Bread Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 08:38:25 -0800 Hi, D. Beeckler, Concerning question #3, in fact, there *is* sugar in normal flour, even without adding any. Or, rather, there *will* be. You see, starch (the primary component of flour) is lots of sugars connected together. Flour also contains enzymes that (in the presence of water) break down some of the starches into their component sugars. So, at the same time that that 1/4 teaspoon of yeast is eating up the sugar, the enzymes are making sugar. Allen --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n048.9 --------------- From: "Paul and Ruth Provance" Subject: Citron shortage? Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 12:40:41 -0500 Dear Bakers, For years, I have been baking the following recipe at holiday time. It calls for diced citron, which is always available at my local supermarkets from Thanksgiving through Christmas. Not this year. I was all over the place, and no citron. I used diced lemon peel, instead, and it turned out just fine. Did anyone else have this problem? I saw that it was still listed as an ingredient in the "mixed fruit and peel" containers, but not by itself. Anyway, Merry Christmas! STOLLEN From the Betty Crocker International Cookbook, Random House, copyright 1980 German Christmas Bread (Stollen) The Germans have many recipes for Stollen; this one, from Dresden, contains fruit, nuts and rum or brandy, and is one of the best-known of Germany's Stollen recipes. 2 stollens ---------- 1/2 cup diced citron 1/2 cup raisins 1/4 cup candied diced orange peel 1/4 cup brandy or rum 1 package active dry yeast 1/4 cup warm water (105 to 115 degrees F) 1/2 cup lukewarm milk (scalded, then cooled) 1/2 cup margarine or butter, softened 1/2 cup granulated sugar 1/2 teaspoon salt 1/4 teaspoon ground nutmeg 3 eggs 4 to 4 1/2 cups all-purpose flour 1/2 cup chopped blanched almonds 1 tablespoon finely shredded lemon peel 2 tablespoons margarine or butter, melted Powdered sugar Mix citron, raisins, orange peel and brandy; let stand at least 1 hour. Drain; reserve brandy. Dissolve yeast in warm water in large bowl. Stir in reserved brandy, the milk, 1/2 cup margarine, the granulated sugar, salt, nutmeg, eggs and 2 cups of the flour. Beat until smooth. Stir in brandied fruit mixture, almonds, lemon peel and enough remaining flour to make dough easy to handle. Turn dough onto lightly floured surface; knead until smooth and elastic, about 5 minutes. Place in greased bowl; turn greased side up . Cover; let rise in warm place until double, about 1 1/2 hours. (Dough is ready if indentation remains when touched. Punch down dough; divide into halves. Press 1 half into an oval, about 10 x 7 inches. Brush with melted margarine. Fold lengthwise in half; press folded edge firmly. Place stollen on greased cookie sheet. Repeat with remaining dough. cover; let rise until double, 45 to 60 minutes. Brush with melted margarine. Heat oven to 375 F. Bake until golden brown, 20 to 25 minutes. Brush with melted margarine; sprinkle with powdered sugar. Notes from Ruth: This bread takes a long time to rise since it is so rich. I give it a lot more time than the recipe. Or use special yeast for sweet doughs. I also make four small stollen with each batch, and make two batches at a time. The small ones are better for giving, and are eaten up before they get stale. If you are going to the trouble to make something special, use butter, not margarine. It's worth it. I skip the powdered sugar--too messy. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n048.10 --------------- From: Richard L Walker Subject: Re: Re: Carl Griffiths 1847 Oregon Trail Starter Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 12:22:59 -0600 Mike Avery wrote: >I would avoid, at all costs, the Goldrush starter. Probably good advice when using the Goldrush starter as a starter, but I discovered that when used just as a yeast for a single batch of bread (that was to ferment overnight) the flavor was very good. I keep trying to get that San Francisco sourdough flavor way - way over in Pensacola FL. Other than the "one batch wonder", nothing seems to come close. My batch of Carl Griffiths did OK. I'm wondering about whether it might help to sanitize sourdough starter containers with a bit of bleach solution (then wash and rinse) to get rid of anything that might adversely affect their starters. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n048.11 --------------- From: Jesse Wasserman Subject: No Knead Bread Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 11:38:22 -0800 (PST) Hi: If I can put my 2 cents in concerning this no knead bread, I had my fling with it the other day and I must say it came it with that great crust that crunches and with a very open texture. It was everything the bread was suppossed to be and I was well pleased with the results. I did use rapid rise yeast,let the mess sit for 18 hours, probably at a higher temp. than 70 degrees F., because I am in southern Florida. And although I did cut back on the water slightly, because of the humidity here, nevertheless the dough was so sticky that, after 18 hours of resting, when I dumped it on the counter I had to add a considerable amount of flour to even remove some but not all its stickiness. Managed to get it on the floured towel with not much shape to it. The dough spread out on the towel after the 2 hours "rise" and I managed to lierally dump it into a heated Corningware dish. What resulted was worth all the effort involved. As good as any French bread I have every had anywhere. Next time I will cut back on the amount of water I use and hope for the best. But I can truly recommend the method and not worry about the kind of yeast. BTW, the bread came right out of the pot. Jesse Wasserman --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n048.12 --------------- From: Marcksmar@aol.com Subject: No Knead Bread Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 15:57:49 EST I made a loaf in a pottery casserole and it came out beautiful. Texture, great. Crust great. But no taste!! --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n048.13 --------------- From: RisaG Subject: No Knead Bread - Yeast Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 17:51:41 -0800 (PST) I haven't tried the recipe yet. I agree though, that there is quite a difference between rapid rise yeast and instant yeast. The instant yeast is the stuff used for breadmachines (such as SAF Red) and the rapid rise yeast is the Fleischman's stuff which is supposed to be used in pizza dough, I think. It is supposed to be used in breads that are made in a single day, not ones that are supposed to sit and get their taste from the yeast - like artisanal breads with sponges and starters. Those takes, sometimes days, to get their flavor and to bake. I haven't used rapid rise yeast in years. I use strictly the SAF Red, which I buy in 1 lb packages from King Arthur and I keep it in the freezer. I keep about 5 loaves worth out of the freezer at a time. I have this jar I use for the yeast in the cabinet. The rest is well-wrapped and put in the freezer. I feed off of it as the year goes on. I bake about 3-7x a month, maybe more, depending on the season. I make 1 loaf of Garlic Bubble Loaf every other week, on the even numbered weeks I make focaccia, pizza dough, and other breads - whole grain loaves, and anything that interests me. I find that the SAF works fabulously in everything I make. I haven't used any other yeast in years. I found that Fleischman's didn't work well in my machine. I used to use Red Star before I found SAF. It worked quite well. Even in ABM loaves. When I try the No Knead Bread from Mark Bittman, I'll post my results. Should I use my Le Creuset Oval Casserole? It is 4 quart I think. RisaG Risa's Food Service http://www.geocities.com/radiorlg --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n048.14 --------------- From: miriam_k Subject: No-Knead Bread, Again Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 09:04:56 +0200 This recipe has become a staple in my household routine. First time I made it, it was much too wet to leave its towel; a mess. After that, I forgot the whole towel thing: leaving the dough in an oiled bowl does no harm at all. Having made the bread successfully several times, I've since departed from the original recipe and have made sweet, savory and sourdough variations. Although all have been good, I must say the one I like best is the original plain white-flour version, no sugar, no fat, just that quarter-teaspoon yeast. Well, I do use 2 tsp. salt instead of the 1 tsp. in the original recipe; from reading posts on other forums, most people like more salt. Like with other doughs, you get a feel for how it should be before setting it to rise. It looks like a batter when first set to rise, but becomes more solid after 15 hours or so - that's my experience, in my Israeli kitchen with my Israeli flour. It's necessary to sprinkle more flour over the mass in order to get it to fold; about 1/4 cup. This recipe calls for flexibility in the mind of the baker, I think. I don't measure how much flour it takes to get the dough to shape, just sprinkle it under and over the mass, rather stingily, till it can be folded. This is where I get my physical contact with the dough, not as satisfactory as kneading, but you do feel you've had your hands in it. As for baking - my oven has no back vent, it contains all the steam. I preheat a seasoned clay saucer, gently dump the folded dough onto it (having placed a circle of baking paper on the saucer just before), and let it bake till done, about 45 minutes at 230 C. I would probably have to find a Dutch oven if my oven had the conventional back vent, or experiment with a wok that sits on a ring or a flame tamer. Anyway, I did bake this dough the covered way, using a Pyrex bowl over my clay saucer, and while it worked fine, handling the hot equipment was a pain. The bread comes out lovely without all that. To me, it was worthwhile mastering this recipe. As I said, it's become part of the routine. That doesn't mean I've given up other breads, just that I've got another good recipe down. Friday mornings I'm still kneading away at the sweet, eggy challah dough, because that's what the family expects and what I want for Shabbat, too. I must say though, that the no-knead recipe takes so little attention that it's likely to remain the standard weekday loaf...till another fascinating recipe comes along. Miriam --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n048.15 --------------- From: "Larry Geller" Subject: Info on Lee Flour Mills Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 14:51:06 -1000 Since I posted info here a couple of years ago on the Lee Flour Mill, I occasionally receive questions about it. So I decided to post what I have on the web. --Larry --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n048.16 --------------- From: Mike Avery Subject: Re: no knead bread Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 20:29:56 -0700 "D. Beeckler" asked... >I hate to post such bad news since there were so many good reports >about the No Knead Bread. I tried it and it was awful. Perhaps I >did something incorrectly. I used white-wheat flour and a little >extra yeast (because how could 1/4 tsp be enough :). It is enough. You don't need to add more. I always suggest following a recipe, at least the first time. The point here is that you have 12 to 18 hours for the yeast to do their job. >I noticed there was no sugar at all - what feeds those little >yeasties? - So I added some - not much. Yeast, contrary to commonly held belief, do not need sugar to be added to dough. They break down the starches in the flour to make sugar, and then digest the sugar. Adding too much sugar actually slows the fermentation. >I placed it above my freezer which is where I raise all my bread. What is the temperature there? While a warm area helps with regular doughs and rise times, leaving it there for so long might not have worked for you. >oh well - followed the rest of the directions Perhaps a bit late..... >What is the problem? #1 I used rapid rise yeast, it works every >where else, why not here, #2 How can you handle already risen dough >and put it in a hot pan and #3 Shouldn't there be some sugar or some >other sweet in it? 1. There shouldn't be any problem using rapid rise yeast. I used instant yeast with no troubles. 2. No problem... pick it up and drop it into the pan. Be careful so you don't burn yourself. 3. No. Yeast don't need sugar, and they don't need to be proofed - at least that's what James Beard wrote in the 1970's, and I haven't proofed yeast since. I'll suggest trying it with white all-purpose flour once. And following the instructions. The NY Times video is still on-line and it shows how to do it at The url to the NY Times is too long to post here, so I shortened it with tinyurl. If you want to use the original url, it is at I hope the video answers more of your questions. Mike -- ...The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world... Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com part time baker ICQ 16241692 networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230 wordsmith --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n048.17 --------------- From: Reggie Dwork Subject: Happy New Year to all Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 22:31:45 -0800 Jeff & I wish you all a very happy New Year, filled with health, happiness, prosperity and lots of good bread :-) Reggie & Jeff --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n048.18 --------------- From: "Penny Dunovsky" Subject: Amount of Flour? Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 12:33:12 -0500 I've baked bread (by hand, not machine) for years but have never been clear about the amount of flour to use. I usually find I am adding more flour than the recipe calls for to get the dough to the satiny and elastic state I think I need to achieve. I can knead for 30+ minutes and still not get to that desired satiny state without adding more flour. Is it OK to have the dough sticky but elastic? We like the bread results - like European bread rather than the cake like texture of American breads. But I want to understand the bread and process better. Thanks for any help. Penny --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n048.19 --------------- From: "Jon Doe" Subject: How much gluten do I add to soy flour? Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 11:56:37 -0500 Hi, I'm trying to make bread from soy flour without adding any other kind of flour. How much vital gluten do I need to add to the recipe per cup of soy flour? Thanks, Jon --------------- END bread-bakers.v106.n048 --------------- Copyright (c) 1996-2006 Regina Dwork and Jeffrey Dwork All Rights Reserved