Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 10:20:13 GMT -------------- BEGIN bread-bakers.v107.n005 -------------- 001 - - Old dough and No Knead 002 - Edmund Sears Subject: Old dough and No Knead Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 2:13:11 -0800 Using old dough to impart flavor to fresh dough is nothing new. Here is what I did with the no knead recipe: Each time I dumped the dough out of its fermentation container (an 8 cup Pyrex measuring pitcher), some of the dough stuck to the sides and bottom of the pitcher. I began leaving the "old dough" in the pitcher and immediately mixed up another batch, starting with the water. I used the water to break up the old dough and then added flour, salt, and yeast. The flavor of the bread improves with each new batch. I haven't tried refrigerating or freezing old dough for this purpose. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n005.2 --------------- From: Edmund Sears Subject: Re: bakeries in France Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 06:11:41 -0500 At 02:55 AM 1/29/2007, Bill Heffron wrote: >I'm planning a trip to France and hope to visit some >bakeries. Within this audience are there bakers who have traveled >France and could share an experience or porvide a recommendation? Bill: Try to find a copy of ":Cherchez le pain: Le guide des meilleures boulangeries de Paris" by Steven L. Kaplan. Unfortunately, it is out of print but you might be able to find a copy in a used book store in Paris. I have used this book as a guide twice in the past year. You can't go wrong visiting the two highest ranked bakeries, both of which are on rue Monge in the 5e arrondissement: Maison Kayser 8, rue Monge Le Boulanger de Monge Dominique Saibron 123, rue Monge I have not yet made it to Poilâne but plan to next trip when I will visit La manufacture de Bièvres, outside Paris, a unique circular structure of 24 wood fired ovens, each with its own mixer and each manned individually by a baker. In effect, 24 copies of the original bakery while preserving its unautomated methods,at 8, rue du Cherche-Midi (6e) in Paris, which is still there. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n005.3 --------------- From: "IndianaBob" Subject: sour dough starter addition Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 05:42:42 -0600 The last loaf I made: I added about 1/2 cup of starter, just took it out of the fridge, stirred the hooch back in and added 1/2 cup - came out great. Next time I'll try a T of olive oil. I use a crock type pot with lid. This is a wonderful bread. IndianaBob (grower of fine weeds and a hosta or two) --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n005.4 --------------- From: Haack Carolyn Subject: no-knead scone Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 04:52:06 -0800 (PST) Maybe one of the excellent food scientists in our extended family here can help me understand THIS result ... similar to one reported in last week's postings. I made the no-knead bread again last weekend but realized I had some 00 flour (the kind often used for Italian bread & pizza crust). Said to myself ... OHO! I'll use this flour and get even better 'artisan' qualities! Followed the recipe (with the exception of the flour substitution) and after about 16 hours, had a slightly risen, marshmallow-y concoction ... I could pull off pieces of it, but it had no stretchy structure whatsoever. It reminded me a bit of a biga I make for ciabatta sometimes. However, guests were coming and the stuff had to be baked. I gave it a little shaping and let it rise (actually, it seemed mostly to sit there projecting a bit of an attitude!). Flipped it into the preheated casserole, baked ... it came out of the pan with no difficulty, looking for all the world like a giant scone! Very dense crumb, I don't know that I would have identified it as a yeasted product if I hadn't made it myself. Now, as almost all things fresh-from-the-oven have some charm, my guests and I wedged it up and it was quite enjoyable with the well-flavored stew that was the main dish. But it was hardly "bread" by any definition. I'll appreciate any insights as to how I achieved this effect! --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n005.5 --------------- From: "Chef Jon" Subject: how to retain moisture in bread Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 08:40:51 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) I am developing a 12 grain bread recipe. I use the sponge method for starting the dough. I know that adding more grains to the dough affects the moisture. My bread is kind of dry, not as moist as I would like. I use the basic bread recipe from the Tassajara Bread Cookbook and have added lecithin and whey, which I read somewhere would retain moisture. I also changed two cups of the flour to 2 cups of bread flour. The original recipe called for 6 cups water and I increased it to 7. When kneading the dough, I am aware of the stickiness of the dough so that I don't add too much flour and dry out the dough. I knead the dough on granite counter top and only knead until the dough stops sticking to the counter top. I am not a novice at making bread, I am a Chef and have been baking bread for over 25 years. I do not want to use the 12 grain flour that is sold in stores. I like to develop recipes from scratch. So if any one could look at the recipe I am including and make any suggestions on how to make the bread end up with more moisture, I would appreciate it. Also I count 11 grains in my recipe and am trying to figure out what to add to make it 12 grains. * Exported from MasterCook * Multi-Grain Bread Recipe By : Serving Size : 0 Preparation Time :0:00 Categories : Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method -------- ------------ -------------------------------- 1st Step 7 cups lukewarm water (85F to 105F) 2 tablespoons yeast 1/2 cup honey 1/2 cup molasses 2 cups dry milk 4 cups whole wheat flour 4 cups unbleached flour 2 cups gluten flour 3 tablespoons granular lecithin 1/2 cup powdered whey 2nd Step 2 1/2 Tablespoons salt 1 cup oil 2 cups bread flour 1 cup rye flour 1/2 cup soy flour 1/2 cup barley flour 1/2 cup rice flour 1 cup flax seed meal 1/2 cup bulgar -- soaked and drained 1/2 cup cornmeal 3 cups whole wheat flour 3 cups unbleached flour 2 to 3 cups additional flour for kneading Dissolve yeast in water. Stir in sweetening and dry milk. Stir in whole wheat flour, unbleached flour, gluten flour, lecithin and whey until thick batter is formed Beat well with spoon (100 strokes) Take bulgar and soak in cold water while sponge is rising. It will be ready for next step. Let rise 60 minutes. Fold in salt and oil. Fold in additional flours until dough comes away from side of bowl. Knead on floured board, using more flour as needed to keep dough from sticking to board, about 10 to 15 minutes until dough is smooth. Dough should still be moist. let rise 50 minutes. Punch down. Shape into loaves. Let rise 20 minutes. Bake in 325F. oven for 50 minutes. Description: "The fundamental Tassajara Yeasted Bread adapted to multi grain." Source: "Tassajara Bread Book" Yield: "5 loaves" - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -= Per Serving (excluding unknown items): 12438 Calories; 323g Fat (22.8% calories from fat); 360g Protein; 2103g Carbohydrate; 145g Dietary Fiber; 249mg Cholesterol; 17091mg Sodium. Exchanges: 115 1/2 Grain(Starch); 2 1/2 Lean Meat; 8 Non-Fat Milk; 62 Fat; 16 1/2 Other Carbohydrates. NOTES : To refrigerate dough and bake the next day: Cover each loaf with plastic wrap secured with a rubber band so it is tight. Let sit at room temperature about 30 minutes and then refrigerate overnight. Next day: Remove from refrigerator, remove plastic wrap and replace with a clean kitchen towel. Let rise until almost doubled. This will take anywhere from three to four hours depending on the ambient temperature. Don't rush the dough. About 20 minutes before you wish to bake, preheat oven to 325 degrees. Bake 50 minutes. Internal temperature of loaf should be 200F. Cool on racks. May be frozen after completely cooled. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n005.6 --------------- From: brian pink Subject: re: no-knead pan size? Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 07:55:56 -0800 >Also, I thought Lahey's bread looked burned. I have found that at >500 F, (which is about the temperature advised by him and also for >the breads in the Silverton book) the crust burns and I don't like >it! Someone said to use 450 F (again, I didn't note the >name). Lahey said that inside the pan it would be 212 F (something >about moisture releasing). With the Silverton breads I've tried, I >reduced the temp to 350 F and they were just fine and did not >burn. Any thoughts on this? I know it's done to make a crispy >crust and retain moisture inside, but burned crust is a real turn-off. When you start at 500, are you backing off the temperature after 5 minutes or so? I've found that the challenge with the higher temperatures is to keep enough moisture in my (admittedly mildly broken) oven. After starting at 500, and then leaving it there for the first 5 minutes, I usually bake at 450 for 1-2lb loaves and 400-425 for 3-4lb loaves. The No Knead bread I made looked great, but I found the taste to be lacking. The flavor seemed flat and bland. I was surprised given the overnight "rise", but for me it didn't compare to my usual loaves with various pre-ferments and kneading. Easy, yes, but I don't usually think of baking bread as a particularly laborious process, even entirely by hand, if you make good use of pre-ferments and a nice autolyse. off to feed the starter! =) - brian --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n005.7 --------------- From: David A Barrett Subject: Another Yeasty Issue Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 10:55:00 -0500 While we're talking about yeast stuff, I had an additional question. For the past few years, just about all of the breads I've made have been made with long, slow rises to allow the flavour to develop fully. I simply don't make loaves that go from bag of flour to oven in two or three hours any more. All of which is mostly irrelevant, except to point out that I can't remember if I've had the same issue with the quicker rising loaves I might have made years ago. I have noticed from time to time that some of doughs have developed an ammonia like smell after rising. This smell usually persists after baking and can be somewhat off-putting. Does anyone have any ideas why this might be occuring? Dave Barrett --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n005.8 --------------- From: Tarheel_Boy@webtv.net (Tarheel Boy) Subject: Yeasty Issues Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 12:04:31 -0500 Thanks to Tom for his lengthy post about "yeasty issues." I disagree with some of his comments, but will defend to the death his right to make them - or something like that. I really don't want to take the time to do battle with him about yeast as I have other priorities (as a vice-president once said). You go to your church, Tom, and I'll go to mine. ;- Bob the Tarheel Baker --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n005.9 --------------- From: "joyce erlitz" Subject: yeast and James Beard Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 13:51:26 -0500 Mike Avery states that he read in Beard on Bread that proofing of yeast was not necessary. since this did not gibe with my memories of baking with his recipes, I actually got up and took the book off the shelf. (lol) to the contrary, Beard proofs his yeast for each recipe-(I looked!) I quote (2004 edition, Alfred A. Knopf): "For yeast to become activated - that is, to release the gas that causes dough to rise - it must have something to feed on." (p.8) "First, proof the yeast, which means testing it to make sure it is still active. To do this, pour the contents of the package into 1/2 cup of the warm water (about 100 F to 115 F), add the sugar, stir well, and set aside. After a few minutes the fermentation of the yeast will become apparant as the mixture swells and small bubbles apppear here and there on the surface." (p.23) Gee, sounds like proofing to me! joyce erlitz non, je ne regrette rien --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n005.10 --------------- From: TeresaG715@aol.com Subject: French bakeries Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 16:07:24 EST Hi, For the best pain au chocolat try the boulangerie on rue Cler in the 7eme. If they're still the same as they were 10 years ago that is. . . I went to college in Paris. Another great bakery is on rue de Sevres I think, the same street as Bon Marche and one of the city's best known fromageries. teresa --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n005.11 --------------- From: Judi9826@aol.com Subject: Re: no-knead baking temperature Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 18:42:46 EST Hey Lobo. I have tried the no knead bread at 500 F and 450 F and still get a burn on the crust using my cast iron dutch oven. I have one rising now and will try the 350 F. Does it still have a good crust at 350? Judi --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n005.12 --------------- From: lobo Subject: re: no-knead pan size? Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 18:52:25 -0700 lobo wrote: >Somewhere in the postings, I saw the pan size given as 6-8 quarts. >This seems huge. Lahey's pan didn't look that snip >Also, I thought Lahey's bread looked burned. I baked the bread before this was answered. Here's my changes to the recipe. It came out great. The crust was a golden brown and the inside somewhat moist. We had it for dinner and I froze the leftover immediately. Several days later, I served the leftover and it was just fine. No-Knead Bread Jim Lahey, Sullivan St Bakery, Hell's Kitchen, NYC Mix together: 3 c. flour 0.25 t. instant yeast 1.25 t. salt Add: 1.5 c. water (I added 2 c. With 1.5 c. water, it seemed much more solid than on the video.) Mix. Cover and let rise 12 hours or more. (I mixed it in the morning before I went to work and baked it as soon as I came home.) Preheat oven to 450 F (my change). Pre-heat 2-qt pan with a cover which can go into the oven. (I used my big cast-iron frying pan. The bread fit fine.) Dump out onto floured board. Fold over on itself 4 times (side to side, then end to end). Cover with wheat bran or flour. Plop into pre-heated pan (no need to grease if it is really hot). Cover. Bake at 450 F for 20 minutes, covered. Uncover and bake another 20 minutes. (original recipes called for 500-515 F, 30 min covered, then 15-20 min uncovered, but his crust was burned and I hate that). --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n005.13 --------------- From: Gloria J Martin Subject: Salt & Yeast: Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 23:46:19 -0600 There was a very detailed posting about yeast (interesting) and also the effects of salt. When I was a young bride (50 yrs. ago) I always made rolls when we entertained. I tried to time everything so the rolls were hot out of the oven just before we ate. This one time I couldn't imagine what was wrong with my dough--it rose so fast, I had to bake it earlier than I wanted to. When we started to eat, I took my first bite of a roll, and it was flat--I had left out the salt! One of the guests explained that the reason it rose so fast was the lack of salt--that the presence of salt would have slowed down the rising and it would have behaved as always before. Possible explanation as to the size of container to bake the No Knead Bread in: I believe the large, heavy weight covered container acts as its own oven when it is preheated, and so there has to be extra space for hot air. I have successfully cut down to a 4 1/2 qt. covered crock, and this gives a thicker (taller) loaf. When I used a 6 qt. covered crock, the bread was fine, but it was flatter. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n005.14 --------------- From: "E.B. Wilson" Subject: No Knead Questions Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 10:29:23 -0500 My experience, after something like twenty loaves of "No-Knead" bread, yields these suggestions in response to the several questions asked in recent postings: (1) Internal temperature for the finished loaf: 205 F; (2) Water content: 340 grams; (3) Pan size: After several trials, I settled on a two quart Cruest for the loaf height I was seeking; (4) Burning: Cut a round disk of foil and place it over the loaf during the final fifteen minutes of uncovered baking; (5) Oven temperature: stick with the master recipe at 450 F; 500 is too hot. I continue to have absolutely great results with this no-knead technique. Will it replace all other techniques. Of course, not! But it is good to have in the repertoire. Meanwhile, has anyone tried the no-knead method for other than the "boule" configuration? Baguettes, batards, rolls, etc.? Let us know. -EB Wilson --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n005.15 --------------- From: ljrsphb@comcast.net Subject: No Knead Bread Why? Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:08:37 +0000 I have been following the discussions her on No Knead Bread for the past month and I have concluded with a statement and a question. I don't need no knead bread and What's all the fuss? This may at first seem a harsh indictment, but I just don't seem to get it from an ingredient point of view or a easy point of view. And I am sure from a taste point of view there is nothing I can't equal or surpass, since it appears everyone believes it is the long rising time which makes it taste so good. I don't disagree, but that can be said for any bread recipe. Big deal! A long rising time of any bread, the poolish, the biga, sourdough will do this. Let me begin with the most obvious reason for the fuss. It's in the title, "No Knead Bread". If people are adopting this because they don't want to hand knead or can't hand knead due to physical problems I have one word, no two words for them, "Food Processor". My mixing and kneading time approaches 90 seconds. Yes, there is no typo error here, I said 90 seconds and that may be stretching it. The simplicity of the ingredients may be the other argument. Huh? It's the same base ingredients used in every yeast bread in bread cookbook and every bread web site. Water, Flour, Yeast and Salt. 90 Seconds No Hand Knead Food Processor Bread. Clever title? 1 11 cup Food processor with steel cutting blade (don't use plastic blade or dough blade - they are useless) 3 cups flour divided (16 oz) 12 oz of water 3/4 teaspoon yeast 3/4 teaspoon salt The Process: Step 1 1/3 to 1/2 of the flour (6-8 oz) plus yeast and salt into bowl. Turn on processor let run 5 seconds and then pour water in through chute. Run processor for 10 secs and stop. Step 2 Remove top and dump remaining flour into the bowl. Put top back on. Let rest for 1 minute to 19 hours? before going to Step 3 I let it rest 20 minutes for rolls, 8-10 hours for bread. For bread I do Step 1 & 2 at night before going to bed Step 3 Pulse run processor for 5 seconds 2-3 times The dough should have formed a ball on the tip of the blade and began to clean the bowl. Step 4 (The step you knead :-))) Run processor for 30 seconds. Wait a minute, I lied, it took 60 seconds. Step 5 Take bread from bowl (should be sticky, so flour your hands and be careful, blades are sharp and I never found my blood to add much to the flavor of the bread.) put bread in a bowl to rise for 1 1/2 hours (If you insist you can let it rise 19 hours) This bread recipe makes approximately 24 oz of dough perfect for a 9x5x3 bread pan The remainder of the steps are the traditionL let rise until double, deflate, shape, let rise and bake as in any other bread recipe. I bake 375 F 15-20 minutes for rolls, 25-30 minutes for bread. Actually I use the more reliable method on measuring internal temperature (185-190F for rolls, 195-205F for bread.) There is no reason I can figure why you cannot skip the second kneading as described in No Knead Bread nor any reason if you want to bake it like the No Knead manner if you like. As for the long slow rise time adds flavor, well that's true for any bread. So it's not unique. In this recipe the long rising time can be between Steps 2 and 3, it can be the first (or only rising) or both. For example, I'll do step 1 and 2 after supper and rest until bedtime( 4-6 hours) and the first rise in the refrigerator over night or until I can get to it (sometimes for 24 hours). Important Note: if you let it rest for more than 1 hour between Steps 2 and 3 add salt in at start of Step 3 Some Final Notes: I never measure flour, I always weigh it. Bread flour usually is 5.5 oz = 1 cup My general rule of bread base ingredients are for each cup(5 oz) of flour 4 oz of warm water (or liquid of choice, see below) 1/2 teaspoon of yeast (I use instant, "bread machine") 1/4 - 1/2 teaspoon of salt. In Step 1 I my general rule is to add the following ingredients but none are not essential. 1 - 2 Tablespoon of each for each cup of flour (5 oz) of Butter or Oil, Sugar or Honey, Drymilk Powder or Buttermilk Powder. For every large egg added to a recipe I add 2 oz of flour(1 1/2 - 2 Tbl?) I have been known at times to substituted scalded milk, warm fruit juice and even warmed tomato or V-8 juice (try this with herbs to make roles to serve with spaghetti) The ratio of flour to bread is 75%, 4 oz water to 1 cup of flour, you can reduce it to 60% 3 oz to 1 cup of flour. If you want to add shredded cheese, add it in at Step 4, else cheese will melt. Herbs and other ingredients can be added during Step 3 Ingredients for my recipe simple rolls, makes six rolls 6 oz of Flour (1 1/4 cups) divided (often I will mix 2 oz whole wheat 1 oz bread in Step 1, 3 oz in Step 3) 4 oz of warm water (or liquid of your choice) 2 Tablespoons of Sugar, Olive Oil, Dry milk (I know I doubled it from my general rule, but we like the taste) 1/2 teaspoon yeast 1/2 teaspoon salt Makes about 11 - 12 oz of dough When I am in a hurry, rest time is 1 minute, otherwise 20 minutes. Rise time 1st rise 2 hours, 2nd rise 1 1/2 hours, Bake 375F 15 - 20 minutes (Int Temp 185 - 190F) Brush rolls with melted butter on cooling rack. I guess my view is bread is bread with just variations, this is an art not an exact science. but the proof is always in the final taste. The past three years I have only used a food processor for bread, unless I am making bread requiring more than 3 cups of flour. My processor is dying now, and I'll replace it with a 14 - 20 cup processor, but if you have an 11 cup it will handle 3 cups of flour, a 7 cup processor about 2 cups Larry --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n005.16 --------------- From: ejpuglisi@locallink.net Subject: No Knead Bread Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 16:30:39 -0000 I've been playing with this recipe since it was posted here and I wanted to share my experiences, too. This seems to be quite the controversial technique! People hate it / love it. It's gotten an enormous amount of attention.... isn't this great? It speaks of what can now be accomplished via the Internet! My recipe is a flour blended of 9 pounds organic bread flour, 3 pounds of organic pumpernickel flour and 3 pounds of organic AP [well blended and stored in a flour bucket so I only have to scoop out my 3 cups], 1/4 tsp SAF Instant Yeast, 1 1/4 tsp kosher salt, 1 3/4 cup cold tap water. This produces a very tasty loaf of ciabatta, which I have baked in 3 different containers... the best is a 7 quart Lodge cast iron dutch oven. The idea here is to create a "mini" oven, so you really don't want to go too small or you'll lose the effect the space inside has in regards to the steam produced by the dough as it heats up, which is what is making this replicate the artisan breads made by commercial bakeries much closer than the usual stone, spray, water in receptacle home method we usually use. These Lodge dutch ovens are inexpensive and I highly recommend getting one to use for this technique. You can also use it for lots of other things. I have no sticking issues. I did have an Innova dutch oven that is like a Le Creuset, but the first time I used it for anything, the porcelain cracked right off, so now it is a plant pot. The next best is a 4.5 quart rectangular Le Creuset covered roaster. I think any turkey roaster, casserole, dutch oven, stock pot will work if it's roomy enough. This LC bakes a ciabatta shape perfectly as is has a very small footprint, yet swells nicely from there with a nice, highly domed lid. This item is now hard to come by... I see it at Amazon, but that's it. I got mine for 50 bux on sale [Actually bought 2 as I wanted to make 2 loaves for Christmas dinner. We only ate 1, but I was not allowed to take home my remaining loaf. It was declared most delicious, but not up to traveling, so must stay behind...], but it is now 99 bux. The worst bread came from a fish steamer. It wasn't really a bad bread, just average- no big holes, so so crust, little oven spring. The roomy oven effect is lost here. Where I deviate from the technique is what I do after the dough has rested on my counter for approximately 12 hours. It is kept in a tightly sealed dough rising bucket on the counter in a low 70s kitchen. At that point, I stick it on the top shelf of the fridge. I did this with the very first batch I tried because I was too tired to bake it when it was ready. I took it out 12 hours later and got a great bread. I dump it out cold, let it sit a couple minutes, then fold it up briefly into the ciabatta shape, cover with a towel, heat the oven for an hour at 450 F and pick up the loaf and stick it in the hot pot, which is still in the oven as I'm not about to try lifting out a screaming hot 7 quart monster.[ I tried the dumping from towel advice and too often dumped it in the wrong spot. I can tenderly pick it up and place it just fine.] Longwise slash, cover. Remove lid at 30 mins and bake 15 more, at which point the bread is consistently 208-210 F degrees internally. Experimentation has given me excellent results at 36 hours of fridge time with holes big enough to park a pick up truck, thin and crispy crust and excellent flavor. I have also let this dough stay out on the counter with no fridge time and that wasn't as good a bread as the fridge variety. I think this might be a great trick for the summertime kitchen that gets too warm for slow countertop rising. I had one loaf not rise much in the dough bucket. I am not sure what happened, but I did autolyse this batch. The dough was so smooth and silky it was incredible, but just refused to do anything but lay there like a limp blob. It had the required yeast and salt added after the autolyse, nothing else was changed. I fridge the dough when it's risen the the 2L mark on the bucket, but this batch just never got there, so I put it in at 12 hours anyway and baked it off after a 12 hour chill. It had a tiny oven spring and had huge holes under the crust, but was eaten anyway. I'm going to try the autolyse again as soon as I remember not to add the yeast/salt right off to see if it was the problem or if it was just a bad baking day. I have been baking french style bread for 30 years, having learned how from Julia Child, and I must say, this technique really does bake up nice bread with little trouble. This no kneading thing is pretty interesting as it just doesn't seem like it should work. This is now our daily bread recipe, but I have many other recipes I also like to make for other types of breads, so consider this an addition, not a replacement. However, all artisan/ french style loaves will be baked in the mini oven technique. It is just so much simpler than the usual home oven gymnastics. Only one thing is missing..... I have been getting delivered to me the 4 K miche from L Poilane's bakery in France. It has this incredible aroma....mmmmmmmmmmm!! I believe it is from the wood used in the ovens there. If somebody could figure out a way to replicate THAT in my home oven, I'd be very appreciative! Elizabeth/ibbibud --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n005.17 --------------- From: FREDERICKA COHEN Subject: yeast Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 18:42:38 -0800 (PST) I'm not a scientific baker in the sense that I check percentages, peer through membranes,and check the temperature of proofed dough. In fact, I leave the kneading to my Kitchen Aid stand mixer. That's why I was delighted to read Tom's comments about yeast and realize I wasn't imagining differences between Fleischmann's and Red Star/SAF. Change the brand in a recipe and differences are obvious in every quality of the bread. For me, it is Red star/SAF every time! Fredericka --------------- END bread-bakers.v107.n005 --------------- Copyright (c) 1996-2007 Regina Dwork and Jeffrey Dwork All Rights Reserved