Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 08:46:16 GMT -------------- BEGIN bread-bakers.v107.n006 -------------- 001 - Haack Carolyn Subject: thoughts on 12-grain bread for Chef Jon: Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 05:12:47 -0800 (PST) I've baked the Tassajara breads ever since the first edition was published (there's now a 25th-anniversary edition, where DID the time go?). I see you're using the larger amount of oil recommended in the original version (the anniversary edition formalized the lower amounts of oil & sweetener from the range suggested in the original book, and also half-sized the recipe!) You could try a little more oil and see the effect. To round out your complement of grains, consider rolled oats, millet (can be used whole, nice crunch & interesting look to the bread), amaranth, quinoa, semolina (pasta flour), garbanzo bean flour (chickpeas). Sesame seeds, while perhaps not strictly speaking a grain, can make a nice contribution. The biggest change I've made in approaching this recipe, though, was sparked by a conversation here on the list about "rehydrating" ingredients. It made me think about adding those whole grains late in the recipe. I have switched to adding the rolled oats into the starter (reducing the flour by approximately that amount) as well as anything like cracked wheat or bulgur. I have not had trouble with gluten development, and the extra time in a damp environment has allowed these ingredients to blend in more with the remainder of the recipe. I suspect I'm using a bit less flour when I'm moving from starter to kneadable dough with this approach, as some liquid now resides in these ingredients, but I can't prove it as I'm more of a "by-feel" baker and rarely weigh my ingredients. But try switching things around and see if it helps you. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n006.2 --------------- From: Laura Locklin Subject: Re: Bakeries in France Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 05:46:33 -0800 (PST) Who knew two of the best bakeries are on Rue Monge? Four years ago we rented an apartment in Paris. The courtyard opened in the front on to Place Monge and in the back on to Rue Monge. NOW I read here that we could have just walked out the back to find some great bakeries! We did love walking up and down Rue Monge reputed to be the oldest street in Paris and the original road to Rome) but never purchased bread there. Instead we took the metro to Poilane a few times. And, yes, that was worth the trip. Laura --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n006.3 --------------- From: Laura Locklin Subject: Re: No Knead Bread Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 05:54:45 -0800 (PST) I have been playing with this recipe using a large square Corningware casserole as the baking vessel. The first time I followed the instructions on the video , oven at 515 F but a much shorter time after removing the top of the casserole. The bread was wonderful but a bit too moist in the interior. Then I substituted a cup of KA white whole wheat flour and tried 450 F. That was good but not as good as the first. The third and fourth loaves I used 1 cup sourdough starter and a cup of the KA white whole wheat flour and they got a little burned at 500 F. The next one will be in a 475 F oven.....the fun continues. Laura --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n006.4 --------------- From: Dave Glaze Subject: Re: Digest bread-bakers.v107.n005 Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 10:53:34 -0800 EB Wilson asked: >Meanwhile, has anyone tried the no-knead method for other than the >"boule" configuration? Baguettes, batards, rolls, etc.? Let us know. I have made all kinds of no-knead bread with many different additions, nuts, dried fruit, potato, onion, cheese, garlic and soaked grains. I tried baguettes and they tasted good, but didn't rise well. I have also tried sourdough, but didn't like the flavour. I will try them again. To make rolls, I used the recipe for Crunchy Wheat Rolls from Van Over's Best Bread Ever. I first made them according to his directions using the food processor. They were disappointing, denser and smaller than I expected. That could be because of my technique and not because of the recipe. I tried the recipe again using the no-knead method. These rose better, had a softer crumb and a crisper crust. To figure out how much water to use, I calculated the hydration at 80% for the white and graham flours, and 90% for the home milled whole wheat flour. I soaked the cracked wheat in water for 30 minutes or so, then drained it. Everything was mixed together and left to ferment for 19 hours. I gave 3 stretch and folds at the beginning of the ferment, one every half hour. I stretch and fold by lightly moistening the counter, dumping the dough onto it, stretching it out, and letter folding west, east, then north, south. After the 19 hours, I dumped the dough onto a counter, divided it into 12 equal pieces, about 100 grams each. I shaped these into balls by folding the edges into the center, then I rolled them to tighten the outside surface. I put them on a half sheet pan sprinkled with semolina to proof for 1.5 to 2 hours. I put the pan into a 475 F oven, put boiling water into a pan on the bottom shelf of the oven, turned the heat down to 450 F and baked them for 10 minutes. I removed them from the pan and finished baking on bricks for another 10 minutes. Next time I may leave them in the pan for the entire bake and just rotate the pan at half time. I changed only the amounts of water and yeast used in the original recipe. The salt is only 1.5%, not the usual 2%. 500 grams all purpose flour 125 grams whole wheat flour 30 grams graham flour 1 tablespoon wheat germ 85 grams cracked wheat 539 grams water scant 1/4 tsp instant yeast 10 grams salt Dave Glaze --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n006.5 --------------- From: lobo Subject: re: no-knead pan size & baking temp Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:27:36 -0700 brian pink wrote: >>With the Silverton breads I've tried, I reduced the temp to 350 F >>and they were just fine and did not burn. Any thoughts on this? I >>know it's done to make a crispy crust and retain moisture inside, >>but >burned crust is a real turn-off. ... >>Lobo >When you start at 500, are you backing off the temperature after 5 >minutes or so? Judi9826@aol.com wrote: >Hey Lobo. I have tried the no knead bread at 500 F and 450 F and >still get a burn on the crust using my cast iron dutch oven. I have >one rising now and will try the 350 F. Does it still have a good crust at 350? I did the no-knead bread at 450. It's other breads I do at 350. But I have this roast chicken recipe that starts at 500 and the temp is reduced as soon as the chicken goes in the oven. It's great! So I will try that with the no-knead. Lobo --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n006.6 --------------- From: lobo Subject: re: No Knead Bread Why? Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:33:53 -0700 ljrsphb@comcast.net wrote: >Subject: No Knead Bread Why? >I have been following the discussions her on No Knead Bread for the >past month and I have concluded with a statement and a question. I >don't need no knead bread and What's all the fuss? It certainly is true that KitchenAid with a dough hook really takes the strain off my arthritic hands. But I do prefer my half-page recipe to your 2 full pages ... ; ) Lobo --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n006.7 --------------- From: lobo Subject: re No Knead Questions (temperature) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:39:14 -0700 On the NY Times video Lahey definitely says 500-515 F. But his is also definitely burned ... 450 worked well for me. Lobo --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n006.8 --------------- From: Mike Avery Subject: Oops... Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 13:48:51 -0700 "joyce erlitz" wrote: >Mike Avery states that he read in Beard on Bread that proofing of >yeast was not necessary. since this did not gibe with my memories of >baking with his recipes, I actually got up and took the book off the >shelf. (lol) to the contrary, Beard proofs his yeast for each >recipe-(I looked!) I'd apologize to James Beard if he were still alive, but in his absence, I'll just apologize to the list for my faulty memory. I was ready to write a "you're wrong, wrong, wrong!" note, but looking at the book, I found my memory was in error. In his overview, he even talks about the "new" idea of not proofing the yeast, just mixing it with the dry ingredients, and adding water at about 120F. He said he didn't like the idea, that while it was attractively easy, it was at the price of flavor. He also suggested if you buy your yeast in bulk, it is even more important to proof the yeast. Which leaves me with the question of why I was so convinced that it was James Beard was the person who said he saw no reason to proof yeast..... Apologies, Mike --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n006.9 --------------- From: Gloria J Martin Subject: About "Why No Knead" Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 12:54:22 -0600 There was a posting by Judi last time and I do have several things to say about it. First off, she said she makes bread with her Cuisinart--good for her! I've made hundreds of loaves that way, literally. She said to use the metal blade, as the plastic one was unnecessary. If you read in the manual, it will say if you are using 3 cups or less of flour to use the metal blade. If you are using more than that, to use the plastic blade---it is less hard on the motor. I don't argue with the company on that. I've the 4 sizes of processors and I believe in following their directions as to quantity and blade. I usually use the 14 cup one. The Cusinart is the easiest and least messy way to make most loaves of bread. I've used my Kitchen Aid once to make bread--to satisfy by husband who gave it to me, and it took longed and I got flour on my counter. Second--To compare the bread made with the Cusinart (excellent bread) with the "No Knead" is like comparing apples and oranges. The "No Knead" is an Artisan (almost) type. The wonderful crust and large holes and wonderful flavor make it special. I would say it depends on what you intend to serve the bread with, as to the type you make. Personally, I don't as a rule eat bread. I just don't find it interesting if it isn't hot, or some special kind. I don't like cold sandwiches because the bread is just bread--even when home made. I actually love to eat a slice of "No Knead" bread with butter, or lightly toasted, or with soup or stew. The flavor and texture are especially appealing to me. 450 F works perfectly for me. Different ovens, I suppose, although mine usually runs hot so I adjust it down for most other recipes. I believe the smaller the container used, the less heat you need because the space inside the container is smaller, and the lid is closer to the dough. I find a crock type container is better than a heavy metal type. I use the one out of my Crock Pot (Rival)--do be sure the lid is glass, not plastic, and the handle is porcelain or metal--I melted a different brand that had a plastic handle on the glass lid. What a surprise when I went to remove the lid! I've used a 4 qt. one, a 5 qt. one and a 6 qt. one. I like the size and results best from the 5 qt. one. I love the Bread Bakers site because there are different opinions, recipes and questions can be answered. Blessing on all those who work to get the postings out each week. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n006.10 --------------- From: "Barbara Wright" Subject: Meltaways Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 19:52:24 -0500 I'm interested in a recipe called Meltaways. It is neither the cookie or candy. I went on the net and found bakeries that make these. I emailed a bakery in Rhode Island, they use a Danish dough, roll it out like making cinnamon rolls, spread with a cream cheese smear, roll and cut. They are baked in muffin pans, and when they come out of the oven, while still in the muffin pan, they use a wooden paddle to flatten them a bit, dump them on trays, and when cool frost them with a sugar icing and nuts. Another bakery said they use a Sweet Yeast Dough to make their Meltaways. I also found a site for a Culinary Program that teaches Laminated doughs: Danish doughs: snails, bear claws, figure eight, 3 leaf, pockets. Variety of fillings: cheese, prune, lekvar, meltaway Coffee cakes: braided, meltaway, scissor cut. Meltaways are made at a bakery called Bonatt's Bakery in Harwichport, MA. and at Savage's Bakery in Homewood, Ala. Another person emailed this to me: The meltaways I used to make in the bakeries was made using Danish dough. Rolled out like for a cinnamon roll, smeared with either Cream Cheese filling or plain buttercream, then folded from the outside edge to the center from both sides. It was then folded on itself so it looked a little like a horse hoof. Rolls were cut about 1/2 to 3/4 of inch thick, placed onto pans, proofed and baked. I never did glaze them after the oven because they always seemed to break apart. You could spray them with simple syrup if you like. Once cooled they could iced using the string method (so they don't break) and serve. Have you ever heard of them? If you can add anything else please let me know!!! I can make cinnamon rolls but would like to learn how to make meltaways. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n006.11 --------------- From: Peter De Smidt Subject: Sourdough Issues Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 13:23:19 -0800 Hi Folks, For awhile I've been making Amy's Crusty Italian Loaf from Amy's Bread, (William Morrow and Company, 1996). This is a sponge starter bread, and I bake it on a baking stone. The results have been very good. Recently, though, I decided to try sourdough. I've been following the method outlined in Peter Reinhart's The Bread Baker's Apprentice, (10 Speed Press, 2001.) I'm having two issues. First, the dough rises /very/ slowly, as in 6 hours at 67 F for the final rise left the bread significantly under-proofed. I've seen suggestions of adding some citric acid or diastatiic malt compound. Would this be a good idea? Anyone have other suggestions? Second, the dough tends to spread rather than rise, if you know what I mean. Any ideas? Regards, Peter De Smidt www.desmidt.net --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n006.12 --------------- From: aqn@panix.com Subject: More on no-knead bread... Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 19:00:22 -0500 (EST) I've made the NYT no-knead recipe a dozen times now, and would like to share my experience. * I used 3/8 tsp of SAF instant yeast, instead of 1/2 tsp. For me, this quantity of yeast produces more reliable results. * The recipe calls for "three cups" of flour. I used the conversion factor in The Breadbaker's Apprentice to convert it to ounces. Three cups come to 13.7 ounces, which, with 12 ozs of water, results in a much too wet dough (91% hydration). I then weighed three cups of flour (King Arthur Bread Flour) and saw that it's actually 15 ounces! I then used 15 ozs of flour + 12 ozs of water (83% hydration), which worked out much better. * I do the final rise on the same old non-stick cookie sheet (floured) that I used for proofing all my other breads. I cover the dough with a piece of oiled Saran wrap. I put the lump of dough on to a square of parchment paper and toss that into the pot (preheated to 450'). The paper square helps in handling the dough as well as in keeping it from sticking though even the sides of the loaf does not stick much to the enamel either, only in a couple of small spots). I do not oil the pot. * I use an enameled cast iron pot, a` la Le Creuset ones, which I bought at TJMaxx for $50. The thing must weigh about 10 pounds! * I bake the loaf covered at 450F (versus the recipe's 500F) for the first 20 minutes (versus 30 minutes), then uncover and reduce the temperature to 400F for another 15 minutes, then remove the loaf from the pot and just put it on the oven rack (no baking stone) for another 15 minutes at 350F. I made the adjustments to get a. a dryer crumb and b. a more golden crust. Total baking time is 50 minutes; the final internal temperature is usually about 206F - 207F. Gloria J Martin wrote: >I do have a question. I know that salt inhibits the growth of yeast, >but I do believe I would like a little more salt in the finished >product. Would adding an additional 1/4 teaspoon inhibit the yeast too much? I have indeed tried the recipe with an additional 1/4 tsp of salt, since I thought I would prefer the bread a bit saltier. Using the conversion factors in Breadbaker's Apprentice, 1 1/2 tsp salt (versus the recipe's 1 1/4 tsp) in 15 ozs of flour works out to 1.6% salt by weight. Even though BBA recommends no more than 1% salt by weight, I did not notice any difference in yeast activity. The taste was just barely saltier. All the same, I reverted back to 1 1/4 tsp salt because I prefer that taste. ljrsphb@comcast.net wrote: >I have been following the discussions her on No Knead Bread for the >past month and I have concluded with a statement and a question. I >don't need no knead bread and What's all the fuss? > >This may at first seem a harsh indictment, but I just don't seem to >get it from an ingredient point of view or a easy point of view. The big deal with this "no knead" recipe for me is not how little work it takes, but the fewer steps that it requires. I need to mess with it only four time: 1. initial mix (yes, I'm lazy and I do this in the KitchenAid; I leave the dough in the mixer's bowl for the long rise) 2. 19-20 hours later: dumping it out onto the cookie sheet, 3. two and a half hours later: put the pot into the oven & turn oven on to preheat, 4. half an hour later: throwing it into the oven. There are significant chunk of time in between the steps for me to do things that require a bit of time, like running errands or mowing the lawn or work on my car. By contrast, a ciabatta requires: 1. Initial mix & let sit overnight in fridge 2. dump out & let ferment 3. after two hour: fold & let sit 4. after 1/2 hour: fold & let sit to proof 5. after 30 minutes: put quarry tiles in oven & turn oven on to preheat 6. after another 15 minutes proofing: put water in oven & put loaf in Not only this requires two more steps, but also there is much less time in between the steps, requiring me to hang around. Andy Nguyen --------------- END bread-bakers.v107.n006 --------------- Copyright (c) 1996-2007 Regina Dwork and Jeffrey Dwork All Rights Reserved