Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 09:14:30 GMT -------------- BEGIN bread-bakers.v107.n023 -------------- 001 - "Leigh" Subject: Bad yeast? Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 08:48:44 -0700 Hi Steve - I always buy the same brand (SAF Red Instant), and it's good for at least a year past the expiration date on the package. That's based on a combination of things I've read at the KA Flour website, and experience. If I've had it more than a year after the date and don't get a good rise in my bread, I would toss the rest of it and start over. It hasn't happened yet. If I found some that was two years after the expiration date, I would toss it. Like many others, I keep it in a tightly sealed container in my freezer. Leigh Steve asks: I have been going go through the archived messages on yeast. So we buy our yeast in bulk and freeze it. How do we know when yeast goes bad? --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n023.2 --------------- From: Haack Carolyn Subject: Cleanup Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 18:25:51 -0700 (PDT) Joe, as my late husband used to say, 'tincture of time' is an easy cure for flour-paste clean up. If it's in a bowl or on a baking sheet, fill the item with tap water and let it sit in the sink a couple hours, until dinner, overnight ... come back later and it's all half-dissolved and just a 'swish' away. This also works for oatmeal pots. On the countertop, similar measures (but a little quicker if you're working on wood) ... take your sponge pretty full of water, squeeze it out on the counter and let it sit a bit. (Not so much water that it runs off onto the floor of course.) I find the plastic-mesh scrubbies do a very nice job on softened crud on horizontal surfaces. For post-muffin drip-on-the-pan cleanup, it's also very effective to just put the pan in the next dishwasher load -- the machine probably won't clear off every smidge, but if you take to the pan immediately when the 'dry' cycle begins, the drip-drops will be totally soft and can be scrubbed off almost effortlessly. Anything you make with grain & water, water will substantially clean up for you with a little time. Enjoy! --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n023.3 --------------- From: "Gary Van Gelder" Subject: Clean up Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 16:17:50 -0500 This is my first response on this site. So if I screw up, be gentle, or send helpful suggestions, or reformat to make sense out of this. It ain't easy being a 66 year old in a young person's world, learning new tricks. Clean-up, ah the scourge for us guys who only have visitation rights, not squatter rights in the kitchen. Rule 1: Wet sourdough stuck to anything-floor, ceiling, cabinets etc. turns into concrete. Remove spills within 15 seconds of making them. Rule 2: Know where the vacuum is stored and how to use it. Rule 3: Cold water is your friend. Rule 4: All flour, dough encrusted vessels, mixing agents, tools, storage containers, anything that will fit in the sink, goes into cold water within 10 seconds of when you are done with it. Use a deep plastic container in the sink to hold spoons, measuring cups, whisks, etc. in deep cold water. Rule 5: Open sourdough cultures over the sink. Rule 6: Open bags of flour over the sink. Rule 7: Clean the underside of handles on kitchen cabinets and faucets as you bake. Rule 8: A small bristle brush works wonders in removing dough from whisks, spoons, etc. It is hard to get the dough out of plastic scrubbers like the tuffy. Throw the brush in the dishwasher occasionally. I use a little one that is 2 inches square with 1/2 inch long bristles. Rule 9: Try to leave the kitchen cleaner than you found it. Rule 10: If all else fails, like Martin Luther once said when faced with a moral dilemma, sin bravely and pray for a big forgiveness! Dr. G. gvangelder@earthlink.net --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n023.4 --------------- From: "Allen Cohn" Subject: RE: proofing Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 08:21:23 -0700 Hi Steve, Typically one gauges that the shaped loaf is ready when it no longer springs back (or springs back just a little bit). Allen --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n023.5 --------------- From: "Allen Cohn" Subject: RE: Quantity of yeast in recipes Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 08:21:23 -0700 Hi Dick, One way to choose the quantity of yeast is to think of the length of bulk fermentation you want and then pick the amount of yeast that is the best fit for that time. As a rough rule of thumb, 1 hour bulk fermentation use cake yeast weight = 2% of weight of flour (1% if using active dry, 0.8% if using instant 2 hour bulk fermentation use cake yeast weight = 1% of weight of flour (0.5% if using active dry, 0.4% if using instant These are such small quantities to weigh that it's also helpful to keep in mind that 1 oz. of instant yeast fills 12.5 teaspoons. Allen --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n023.6 --------------- From: debunix Subject: Re: Baking tiles Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 23:32:06 -0700 I leave my tiles in the oven unless I specifically don't want them-- I'll remove them for delicate cakes, or sometimes if I am in a hurry and don't want to wait the extra time for the oven to preheat. I have what sounds like the same set, with thin bricks and an aluminum sheet that holds them all. Nearly all of the bricks in my 2 sets are broken at least once, but they fit tightly together in the tray and still work fine to bake breads etc. I often bake hearth breads, and always do pizzas, foccacias and pitas, directly on the bricks. --diane in los angeles http://www.well.com/user/debunix/recipes/FoodPages.html --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n023.7 --------------- From: "Doug Essinger-Hileman" Subject: Re: proofing Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 08:24:13 -0400 >Okay, now tell me. After you shape the loaf and let it proof, is it >ready to bake when you push your finger down and it springs back or >when your finger makes a dent? When it makes a dent. Doug --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n023.8 --------------- From: "Doug Essinger-Hileman" Subject: Stones or tiles Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 08:24:14 -0400 >I hope I don't sound ditzy, but you said the tiles on the bottom >rack and leaving them there for cookies and such. Do you bake your >cookies on the tiles, as well as bread? > >I have a set of tiles that I got that fit on an aluminum >sheet. Alas I broke one tile and lost the aluminum sheet in the >move, but hey, the rest still work, I imagine. After I got a pizza >stone I quit using them. I'd like to return to them because the >info with my PampChef stone said not to preheat the stone and I like >the hot stone to put pizza and bread on and the tiles are always >preheated first. > >Also, do you cook bread straight on the stone or in a bread pan? I >use pans and the heat is not always even and so the tiles might help >with that, I suppose? My "hearth" is made up of a nine untreated red clay tiles I bought from a building supply store ages ago. I place them directly on one of the oven's wire racks which allows me to change the position of the "hearth" according to need. I usually bake hand-formed loaves (as opposed to loaves in pans), and I usually put the loaves directly on the hearth, moving the loaves into the oven using a peel I bought at Williams-Sonoma (since I worked there, I got a great discount). When I do this, I put the loaves on the peel for the final proofing after having liberally sprinkled the peel with polenta (coarse-ground yellow cornmeal). Sometimes I put a sheet of parchment paper down first. Always (well, almost always, for there have been a few days when time constraints have led me to "cheat") I preheat the oven and tiles for about 45 minutes. And I always leave the tiles in the oven, for it is just as easy to put a roasting pan or casserole dish onto the tiles as it is to put them onto the wire rack. Doug --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n023.9 --------------- From: "Doug Essinger-Hileman" Subject: Yeast to flour ratio Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 08:24:14 -0400 >I've been making bread for almost 20 years, mostly from a recipe for >whole wheat and one for caraway rye. Both recipes produce loaves >with a nice rise. However, occasionally I try a new recipe and find >that the rise is not what I would liike. My first thought is that it >must be the quantity of yeast called for but I have been reluctant >to change that for fear of spoiling the whole batch. > >Does anyone know of a ratio of yeast to flour that is most ideal? I >would appreciate any advice extended. A classic french bread dough is 60-2-2, with 60% hydration and 2% each of yeast and salt. A good way to answer your question for other types of bread is to find recipes which give the baker's percentages. Most of the artisan books currently on the market give these percentages. (And though the mega-bookstores might cringe when I mention this, remember that you don't have to buy these books to get the percentages. I often used Barnes&Noble and Borders as research libraries. I do buy a large cup of hot tea and a scone from their cafe, as compensation, I tell myself. There is no reason you couldn't do the same thing. One thing to remember is that the amount of yeast given in a recipe is chosen to give a certain rise in a certain time. You can always increase the amount of yeast if you want a faster rise. The danger is that you might end up with an overyeasted bread. The other detail you can manipulate is to give a longer rise. The danger here is that the yeast will be exhausted, and that can produce offtastes, too. Doug --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n023.10 --------------- From: Tarheel_Boy@webtv.net (Tarheel Boy) Subject: Three for the price of one... Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 10:13:49 -0400 For Joe Q.: Don't allow the "paste" to dry on utensils or in bowls. Fill a bowl with water and dump your utenstils in the bowl keeping them wet until you'e ready to wash up your stuff. ~~~ For Steve Gomes: When your loaf "pushes back" at your finger it is still rising. When your "finger dent" stays, it's risen as much as it can. ~~~ For Steve Gomes: When does yeast go bad? When your bread won't rise. ;-) Steve, this isn't much of a problem nowdays what with the advances in the manufacture of yeast. Store it in the freezer and it will probably last longer than you do. ~~~ Bob the Tarheel Baker --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n023.11 --------------- From: Larry J Renaud Subject: Yeast to Flour Ratio Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 10:39:00 -0400 I find using yeast in the following ratio gives me the best results For 1 cup AP or Bread Flour (5.25 oz) 1/2 teaspoon yeast For 1 1/2 cup AP or Bread Flour (approx 8 oz) 3/4 teaspoon yeast For 1 cup Whole Wheat or Rye (5.25 oz) 3/4 teaspoon yeast For 1 1/2 cup Whole Wheat or Rye (5.25 oz) 1 teaspoon yeast So if I used 8 oz of Bread Flour and 8 oz of Whole Wheat together 1 3/4 teaspoon of yeast I also add Vital Wheat Gluten(VWG) when using Whole Wheat or Rye 1 cup of Whole Wheat 1 tsp 1 1/2 cup of Whole Wheat 1 1/2 tsp 1 cup of Rye 2 tsp 1 1/2 cup of Rye 3 tsp My German Rye Bread would use the following flour-yeast-VWG ratios 8 oz of Bread Flour (1 1/2 cups) 3/4 tsp yeast No VWG 4 oz of Whole Wheat ( 1/2 cup) 3/8 tsp yeast 1/2 teaspoon VWG 4 oz of Bread ( 1/2 cup) 3/8 tsp yeast 1 teaspoon VWG Total 1 1/2 tsp yeast and 1 1/2 teaspoon VWG If you're interested in complete recipe write me. Subject: Request German Rye Bread --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n023.12 --------------- From: Gloria Subject: Stones or tiles; Yeast Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 16:01:36 -0700 (PDT) Stones or tiles: Linda asked on June 17 post, "Do you bake your cookies on the tiles, as well as bread?" No, I bake cookies on sheets and bread in pans on the shelf above the bottom shelf containing the stone. However, after baking bread, I remove the bread from the pans and the shelf above the stones. Then I put the loaves of bread on the stone for a few minutes of additional browning. Yeast: Steve asked on June 22, "How do we know when yeast goes bad?" Answer: You proof it. I keep bulk yeast refrigerated for a very long time, and when baking bread the old-fashioned way (without a bread machine), I always "proof the yeast." That is, I add the yeast called for in the recipe and 1 teaspoon sugar to half a cup of warm water 100 to 115 degrees. (Yes, I check the temperature with an instant-read thermometer, so as not to kill the yeast with water which is too hot.) If the yeast is still good, the mixture will be very foamy after about five minutes. Even if one uses a bread machine, one can check the yeast in this manner, if worried about it being good. Gloria Linnell --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n023.13 --------------- From: "Arlene \(Baker_ia\) Klatt" Subject: yeast Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 15:51:24 -0500 You can test your yeast by adding it to some of your water in the recipe and a little bit of sugar and see that it bubbles and if it does it is good. I just do this and then gather the rest of the ingredients around It is called proofing your yeast. Arlene --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n023.14 --------------- From: "Gary Van Gelder" Subject: Variations on New York Times No Knead. (NYTNK) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 06:38:27 -0500 Variations on New York Times No Knead. (NYTNK) Presenting Opportunity: Teach a group of kids in a Cooking School class something about Breads of the World. The limiting factor was class time: 2 hours one morning and 1.5 hours work time plus 30 minutes tasting the following morning. Pan-fried wheat and corn based flat breads were easy choices. Much hands on with mixing, rolling etc. Instant tasting gratification. However, wanted to include a leavened bread and if possible contrast the flavors of sourdough and baker's yeast breads. It was also an opportunity to look at ways of fitting baking into today's "busy schedule." The "original NYTNK method" prescribed 12-18 hour fermentation, then dump on counter, fold once or twice, rest 15 minutes, shape, cover, 2 hour proof, preheat pan, carefully dump dough in hot pan and bake. The handling during the "middle stages" conflicted with the kids class schedule. In addition, one does not let kids near hazards like hot pots, which also detracted from the kid's hands on experience. Hence the experiments to find another way. ********** Experiment 1: Purpose: Will a 24-hour, no handling, benign neglect dough, yield good bread? Mixed the NYTNK dough and placed directly into oiled Dutch oven. No folding, no kneading. One dough started with 100 gms sourdough culture in a 645 gm of flour dough (fills a 3.5 qt Dutch oven), the other with 1/8 tsp instant baker's yeast in a 370 gm of flour dough (fills a 2 qt. covered casserole dish.) Target hydration was 80% for both. Fermented untouched for 24 hours at 75-77 F. Baked at 420 F for 55 minute starting with cold oven. Baked with lid on for 35 minutes and lid off for 20. Results: Good rise, good volume, medium sized holes, edible bread, poor browning on top crust, good side and bottom crust. Both loaves had pulled away from side wall with no sticking. Crumb very moist and soft. Crumb was short on body and texture. Almost like that of a "store bought" bread or bread made with shortening. The sourness was well developed in loaf started with starter. The loaf started with 1/8 tsp instant yeast had similar crumb and crust characteristics. Both loaves made with 100% KA white bread flour. ********** Experiment 2: Purpose: determine baking conditions to develop brown top crust. Recipe that when proofed fills a 3.5 qt Dutch oven: 517 gm water with 50 gm or less of sourdough starter, dispersed by mixing; add 645 gm white bread flour; 14 gm salt. Started with refrigerated sourdough culture that had been fed 3 days earlier. Mix and let sit for 20-30 minute autolyse. Then using Jim's technique from http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/jimpics/index.html and his short video, lifted and folded the dough 8 times as in the video. I counted folds rather than clock time. The autolyse and a few folds helped developed the dough. Put in oiled Dutch oven, covered with plastic film and lid, and fermented for 6 hours at 75-77 F and 3.5 hours at 88-92 F. Pushed the fermentation in order to bake same day. Removed plastic film. Baked in 405 F preheated oven for 15 minutes with lid on and remaining time with lid off. Internal temperature reached 204 F in 53 minutes. Dumped on cooling rack (no sticking.) Result: Top, side and bottom crust well developed, brown, crunchy. Crumb had texture and body. Sour taste moderately developed. This resolved the top brown crust issue. The crumb texture was better than experiment 1 loaf. The little bit of folding improved the loaf. This is also a potential method for busy folks. Key would be fermenting at a temperature that allowed one to mix and then bake approximately 12 hours later (morning-evening or evening-morning) with a fully proofed loaf. ********** Experiment 3: Purpose: Will a 24-hour ferment with one post-mix 8X fold produce a good loaf? Same sourdough recipe as in experiment 2 except cut back on starter to 30 gm in 645 gm flour. Mixed, 30-minute autolyse, 8 folds, fermented 24 hours in oiled Dutch oven at 74-77 F. It overflowed the pot by about a cup of airy dough. The proofed dough stuck to the plastic wrap, removing it disturbed the surface structure, and some gas was lost. Baked in a 400 F preheated oven for 15 minutes with lid on. Reached 206 F at 55 minutes. Results: good brown crust all surfaces, crumb texture had some body and was chewy, flavor and sourness well developed. No oven spring as dough was fully mature to over mature. Good medium size hole development. Conclusion: this method will work with a 24 hour between classes schedule. Need to adjust dough volume downward by 15% (include a little margin for error.) If not fitting a class schedule other alternatives include: refrigerate to retard, move up baking schedule, start with ice water and frozen flour. Remember to treat top of fermenting dough with spray oil to keep plastic film from sticking. ********** CONCLUSION: With adjustments for dough volume, starting dough temperature and fermentation temperature the NYTNK method is flexible and yields good loaves with minimum of effort. [Also posted at: http://www.bakersforums.com/index.php and bakingfun@mail.otherwhen.com Archived at: http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/private/bakingfun/ Register for mailing list and access to archive at http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/listinfo/bakingfun] ] Dr. G. gvangelder@earthlink.net --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n023.15 --------------- From: "Gary Van Gelder" Subject: Experiment storing sourdough culture in stainless steel Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 07:04:11 -0500 Storing sourdough culture in stainless steel for 3 months did not harm or change culture. I am an experimentalist by nature. Some suggest to the extent of compulsive obsession!!!! Okay, I will spend $20 to make or prove a point, or just to find out!!! Starting taking things apart at an early age to see what made them tick and at 66 am just as curious. Like all of you, I have the references that say metal is bad for your SD culture, toxic, inhibitory etc. Like many things evolving out of the old arts, crafts and folklore of life, some things just need to be taken with a grain or more of salt! Anyway, worked in the chemical and oil industry where many exotic metals are used in corrosive environments including various types and grades of stainless steel. It just did not add up that food grade stainless steel could be attacked by the relatively mild (on the big scale of acidity) acidity of a biological sourdough could do much damage to stainless steel. Therefore, here was the experiment. Purchased a set of 3 stainless steel canisters, intended for food from the food/camping section of a sporting goods store. I am more likely to be in a store that sells fishing tackle than one that sells baking and cooking supplies and tools. Split my sourdough starter (origin Sourdough International, San Francisco strain) in half, keeping half in the usual Ziplock rigid qt plastic container with screw on tops and 1/2 into the stainless steel (SS-SD). Feed the SS-SD every 2 weeks for 3 months. Relatively long time between feedings to let it get good and acidic in the fridge. Then this week baked my usual 70% white-30% rye/whole wheat combo bread with the SS-SD. It was as sour and flavorful as ever. There was no, like none, change in flavor, texture, proofing or baking characteristics. The next day I baked with the starter from the Ziplock. No difference. Cleaned out the SS container. Shiny, smooth surface inside, absolutely no evidence of pitting, scaling, oxidation, degradation or any other applicable term. Just like the other 2 unused canisters. Clean, shiny in original condition. The only negative was the lids were SS also and very tight fitting; sourdough concrete makes lid removal difficult. Now, let us put the stainless steel mythology aside when we worry about contact of our cultures with metals. I do not have any uncoated old steel pots around with which to test the folklore further. [Also posted at: http://www.bakersforums.com/index.php and bakingfun@mail.otherwhen.com Archived at: http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/private/bakingfun/ Register for mailing list and access to archive at http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/listinfo/bakingfun ] Dr. G. gvangelder@earthlink.net --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n023.16 --------------- From: aqn@panix.com Subject: Re: cleaning Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 20:17:13 -0400 (EDT) I have a few "tips" (I think they're tips!): 1. I do kneading, folding etc. in a rimmed cookie sheet, so the cleaning is confined to cleaning the cookie sheet, instead of a (bigger) work surface. If I really need to handle dough on a big surface, I do it on a glass table top. To clean either the cookie sheet or the glass table top, I use a dough scraper to scrape up dried/stuck bits of dough first. 2. I use the same one bowl (my Kitchen-Aid's bowl) for pre-mix, overnight pre-fermenting, proofing etc. 3. I soak the bowl, the dough scraper, etc. and then use a rubber spatula to "scrape" bits of dough off of them before washing them. I imagine the same procedure can apply to other utensils... Andy Nguyen --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n023.17 --------------- From: Jeff Dwork Subject: Missing digest Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 01:44:10 -0700 I don't know why, but the July 7 digest didn't go out. We were really busy this past weekend, so this week's is late (as you probably noticed :-) Jeff & Reggie --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n023.18 --------------- From: "Lorna in Jedburgh: lornajay.wordpress.com" Subject: Re: cleaning Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 18:24:47 +0100 >I hate to go away from the sublime of baking but can anyone share >some tips on cleaning up after the making/baking is done? > >I will sometimes put off a needed bake session when I think of the >difficulty of removing flour paste from all the utensils. I need HELP! Two words: cold water. Put your utensils to soak immediately after use in a sink of COLD water. Hot water plus bread dough = glue! Lorna --------------- END bread-bakers.v107.n023 --------------- Copyright (c) 1996-2007 Regina Dwork and Jeffrey Dwork All Rights Reserved