Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 05:00:25 GMT -------------- BEGIN bread-bakers.v107.n033 -------------- 001 - "Jack Allen" Subject: I Need Some Instructions Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 22:50:02 -0500 I know nothing of bread baking. But I would like to make a crusty rye sourdough in my ABM. Can someone please advise me? Thanks --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n033.2 --------------- From: Linda C Subject: KitchenAid, Bosch and what worked for me Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 20:35:07 -0800 (PST) I had a kitchenaid... k45 ... 250 watts and though I completely wore it out, it made grindy noises while I kneaded bread, it still kept kneading. But because it needed replaced, my dh convinced me to get a more powerful one because I make several loaves of bread at a time and at least once a week. And I like to do most of the kneading with the mixer and finish off on the counter for rising. So, I went for the Bosch Universal after a lot of research and reading reviews. There are somethings easier with the KA, like mixing batters are less messy in the KA because of the middle post in the Bosch. But all in all and because my biggest use is bread making, I am totally sold on the strength and quality of the Bosch and the recipe that came with it I've adapted to my use and make quick work of 4 loaves of bread. It really does knead the bread better than the KA ever did. The kneading hooks are made differently and work much more efficiently. Plus, I love the blender with the Bosch. Much more powerful. The Bosch Universal is 700 watts. Linda ps... I know others have different experiences with each one. I think it all boils down to what works for you needs. I am utilitarian and need what I need to get my bread made for my family. We like hearty, but pliable sliced bread for sandwiches and toast. I also make pizza dough occasionally. I use all fresh ground whole grain, but want it light enough to bend a little before it breaks. So the recipe I've worked on and the equipment I have works great for me. It might not for someone else. Blessya'bunches from a Linda Just a Stitch in Time http://360.yahoo.com/chasebusiness --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n033.3 --------------- From: dmrogers218@comcast.net Subject: Re: burned dough in abm Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 12:57:47 +0000 Jan, I have no idea if this would work or not but I would try baking a couple of trash loaves of bread to see if that would remove the odor. The offensive odor would "go into" the bread. I know when I bake something sweet in my regular oven the next time I turn it on to preheat I get a scent of that sweet odor but after baking the savory dish, the sweet smell is gone. I hope it works if you choose to try it. deb in Georgia --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n033.4 --------------- From: Tarheel_Boy@webtv.net (Tarheel Boy) Subject: Re: The Changing Taste of Sourdough Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 12:09:56 -0500 Mike writes: All of this, to me, suggests that the theories about climate and air causing changes in sourdough starters are just old husband's takes. Oh no, you don't, Mike. I'm a husband and I'm old, but I do believe that climate and air do cause changes in sourdough starters. By the way, did you mean takes or should it have been tales? A few years back when I was a real sourdough fanatic, I had several jars of sourdough starters perking away on the bottom shelf of my fridge. I had obtained San Francisco, Russian, Egyptian, Lower Slobbovian and several others starters from Ed Wood. I got them up and running and fed them religiously as the book said to do. At first, the loaves did taste differently based on the starter I used. After a while though, they all began to taste the same. They were becoming Blue Ridge Mountain sourdough. Why was I cluttering up my fridge with all these starters when all I needed was one. I became rather lazy and didn't feed those hungry little guys as I should. Did they care? Hell, no. I could let them go several weeks and they would perk right up as soon as I fed their gaping maws. And then it dawned on me that I was really wasting money but dumping half my starters to make room in the jars in order to feed them more. Was it all worth it? Then I went on a cruise that was 28 days long and left my starters to fend for themselves. That'll teach 'em. When I got home, they looked a tad peaked but sat right up and asked me how the cruise was as soon as I fed them. These guys are tough. Finally, I learned that climate and air are important. My San Francisco starter started at sea level and the wild yeasts in that sea air were quite different from the wild yeasts that were in my mountain air 2200 feet above sea level. And, of course, the vegetation here is quite different than in the Bay Area. Yes, San Franscisco sourdough bread tastes good, but does it taste any better than Blue Ridge Mountain sourdough bread? Nah! It tastes different but not better. San Francisco just markets their bread better. So, I say that climate and air do make a difference. I also say you don't have to be a slave to your starters. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. Bob the Tarheel Baker --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n033.5 --------------- From: "Allen Cohn" Subject: RE: Compensating for Humidity Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 09:59:18 -0800 Hi Dan, Very interesting analysis, but I think your numbers are *slightly* off (not enough to alter your point). In the "average" case 1209 g average moisture flour X 87.5% solids in average moisture = 1058 g solids If we solve backwards 1058 g solids / 85% solids in wet flour = 1245 g wet flour Difference is 36 g or 3%. So add 36 g flour and subtract 36 g water from your formula. Having said all that, I still suspect that this business of adjusting for humidity is more of an "old husbands' tale" as MikeA would say. My theory is that most/many of these humidity theories were developed by people measuring flour by volume as opposed to weight. And my informal tests in baking classes show that batch-to-batch differences when measuring by volume dwarf that 3% figure. Allen PS: The "true" hydration of your bread can be calculated as: 1209 g flour X 13.5% = 151 g water 1209 g flour X 65% add in water % = 786 g water Total water 937 g. Total "true" hydration = 937/1058 = 88.6% --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n033.6 --------------- From: "Norbert or Jeanette Jacobs" Subject: KA No-Knead recipe Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:33:52 -0600 Hi Folks, I have baked the New York No-Knead bread recipe several times, but most recently I tried King Arthur's Bread site's "adjusted" version. Both mix, rise, brown, and taste as expected which is very good. But the problem I have with both recipes is that even though the crust is nice and crispy, the inside bread is sort of gummy. The texture is good (sometimes more dense than others), but stays damp, not dry, after cutting into it. I do wait until the loaf is completely cooled before I first cut into it (the toughest challenge, I must admit!) but that hasn't helped. Any ideas? Thanks, Jeanette in South Texas (who is now a weekend Deer Hunter's Widow...and loving it! Four-day weekends off (until January when life and loving husband return to normal)...eeeeha!) --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n033.7 --------------- From: "Norbert or Jeanette Jacobs" Subject: Mister alternative Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:40:38 -0600 For those Listers who were looking for a good Olive Oil Mister, I found on the internet an idea that might be an option for you: several companies make a small glass jar that has a silicone brush attached to the underside of the stainless steel lid. My Google search found a pretty one made by Norpro that even has a silicone bulb / brush version with its "Oil Glass Cruet." Looks like it would work well for olive oil or even marinades that you baste with. Good luck, Jeanette in South Texas --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n033.8 --------------- From: Kathleen Subject: Bread Machine Crust Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 06:17:51 -0500 My daughter-in-law is having a problem with her newest bread machine, the Zo. She says the bread is great, but the crust is too hard, and changing the crust setting is not helping. Does anyone have an idea to help her? I'm still a traditional bread baker and am not familiar with the machines. kathleen --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n033.9 --------------- From: "Andreas Wagner" Subject: Bread in France Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 17:48:39 +0100 Hello, France 2 television ran an interesting programme last night, about people trying to make better bread in France. A few familiar names came up such as Poilane and others which were new to me, Frederic Lalos, Eric Keyser and Steven Kaplan. There was also mention of an outfit called "Les Troublions du Gout", who visit all the bakeries in Paris tasting baguette and croissant au beurre and then grading them on the quality of their service and goods. You can watch the programme on the net at: go to the bottom of the page and click on "Voir ou revoir ce reportage". Even if you don't speak French it's an interesting one to watch. Eric Keyser on his "levain" and developing speciality bread, Steven Kaplan on improving the bread served in restaurants, Frederic Lalos on the quality of flour and visiting his miller and their cereal farmers..... The Troublions du Gout have a website about bread at - the bread awards and ratings seem a little outdated, but might still be useful to those of us visiting Paris in search of good bread. Happy baking, Andreas For great holiday accommodation in the south of France visit our website at http://www.midihideaways.com --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n033.10 --------------- From: "Allen Cohn" Subject: Basic Procedure for Making Sourdough Starter Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 19:49:44 -0800 Hi everyone, There was some discussion recently of the perennial question of how to start a sourdough starter. This procedure has been extensively researched by Debbie Wink, a delightful and brilliant member of our bread making community. To the benefit of all of us, she has applied her formal training in biology and chemistry (plus lots of additional library and kitchen research) to arrive at the process I have reprinted below (with her permission). Working with members of another internet discussion group, this process has been tested and refined by a wide variety of home bakers and thus is most likely one of the very best around. Best, Allen SHB San Francisco Basic Procedure for Making Sourdough Starter by Debbie Wink If you are the curious, investigative type (or a sourdough purist :-), this can be done with just water in place of the juice throughout. For many (not all), a vigorous gas-producing bacteria will grow on day 2 and quit growing on day 3 or 4, followed by a few days or more of agonizing stillness. The fruit juice or cider should keep this bacteria (and a few others that are smelly) from growing and delaying the process. Either way, the end result will be the same sourdough starter. Day 1: mix . . . 2 Tbl. whole grain flour* (rye or wheat) 2 Tbl. unsweetened pineapple juice, apple cider or orange juice Day 2: add . . . 2 Tbl. whole grain flour* 2 Tbl. juice or cider Day 3: add . . . 2 Tbl. whole grain flour* 2 Tbl. juice or cider Day 4: (and once daily until it starts to expand and smell yeasty), mix . . . 2 oz. of the starter (1/4 c. after stirring down--discard the rest) 1 oz. flour** (scant 1/4 cup) 1 oz. water (2 tablespoons) * Organic is not required. ** You can feed the starter/seed culture whatever you would like at this point. White flour, either bread or a strong all-purpose like King Arthur or a Canadian brand will turn it into a general-purpose white sourdough starter. Feed it rye flour if you want a rye sour, or whole wheat, if you want to make 100% whole wheat breads. If you're new to sourdough, a white starter is probably the best place to start. Because this is a process involving variable live cultures, I think it may be better to outline the phases than to give a timetable. It's a natural succession that will progress at its own speed. You can influence it, but you can't control it--not an easy concept for a baker :-) "Relax. Be patient." You'll hear that a lot in regard to sourdough. You don't have to taste the mixture if the thought really bothers you, but it will tell you a lot about the progress at times when there may be no other outward signs. Lactic acid doesn't really have an aroma, so you won't be able to gauge just how sour it is by smell. Taste the initial mixture to get a point of reference and pay attention to the sourness level as you go. Taste it before you feed and decide if it is more sour or the same as after you fed it 24 hours previous. Taste it again after feeding the next addition to compare in the next 24 hours. The First Phase: For the first day or so, nothing will happen that is detectable to the human senses. It probably won't taste any tangier or develop any bubbles. It will look much the same as when you mixed it. This phase usually lasts one day, sometimes two. The Second Phase: The starter will begin to produce its own acid and taste tangier (it may be hard to tell with some juices until you switch to the water). It will expand only if the juice wasn't acid enough to prevent growth of the gassy bacteria, otherwise there won't be much else to see. There probably won't be much gluten degradation. It may smell a little different on the surface, but shouldn't smell particularly foul unless you're using water. This phase could last one to three days or more. If it is going to get hung up anywhere, this is the place. If after 3 days, it still doesn't become more sour and show signs of progress, use whole grain flour instead of white for one or more feedings. The Third Phase: The starter will become very tart, an indication of more lactic acid production by a more acid tolerant bacteria. The gluten may disappear and tiny bubbles become more noticeable. Once the starter becomes really sour, it usually transitions right into phase four. The Fourth Phase: The yeast will start to grow and multiply, causing the starter to expand with gas bubbles all over, and it will take on the yeasty smell of bread or beer. ******************************************** Feeding Exact feeding times aren't critical. Pick a general time of the day--morning, afternoon or evening--that will be convenient to feed daily for 4-7 days. It'll only take a few minutes, and if it varies a few hours from one day to the next, that's okay. But, try not to skip a day. There is a higher incidence of growing mold when an unestablished starter sits idle for 36 hours or more. Daily refreshing seems to eliminate that risk. Containers Keep the container covered to prevent mold spores, dust, undesirable bacteria and wayward insects from falling in. Don't worry--it doesn't need fresh air or oxygen, and all the microorganisms you need are already in the flour. For the first few days of this procedure, you can leave the mixture in a bowl and set a plate on top. Saran Quick Covers work great too. Run a rubber spatula around to scrape down the sides after mixing. From day 4 on, it's a good idea to rinse the storage container before returning the freshly fed mixture. It is not necessary to sterilize the container, but old residue stuck to the sides or lid is an invitation for mold. By day 3 or 4 it will need room to grow (day 2 if using water). Be sure to use a container about 4x the volume of freshly fed starter or you may end up with a mess on your hands. Wide-mouth canning jars are nice to gauge and view the rise. Also, the two-piece lids are designed to vent pressure. Straight-sided Rubber Maid containers work well too. Plastic containers with tight-fitting lids will pop their tops if they are sealed tightly. Gladware doesn't seem to have that problem. Temperature You don't need to keep it in a special place unless your house is particularly cool--try to keep it in the 70's for the most part. 75-78F would be ideal, but you needn't go out of your way to achieve that. The low 70's will do fine. Below 68, things might be a bit slow to develop (but it will eventually). One solution for those with very cool houses, is to turn on a desk or table lamp and set your container in the vicinity. Light bulbs put out a LOT of heat, so be sure to take a temperature reading of the site and set the starter where it won't be warmer than about 80F. Cool is better than too warm. If the starter develops a crust at any time, move it farther from the heat source. The warmth helps more in the first few days because the various bacteria really like it and it helps them produce the acids needed to lower the pH and wake up the yeast. The yeast don't need it so warm. Once you have a good population of yeast growing, you'll be able to maintain it at cool room temp, even if that's less than 70F. They will grow faster if kept warm, but they'll also run through their food supply and exhaust themselves sooner as well. ******************************************** How it works: It seems to be a widely held belief that if you add water to flour and "catch" some wild yeast and sourdough bacteria from the air, or from grape skins, etc., that they will grow and become starter, but it doesn't work quite like that. The "bugs" we're trying to cultivate will only become active when the environment is right -- like a seed won't germinate until certain conditions are met. When you mix flour and water together, you end up with a mixture that is close to neutral in pH, and our guys need it a bit more on the acid side. There are other microbes in the flour, however, that prefer a more neutral pH, and so they are the first to wake up and grow. Some will produce acids as by-products. That helps to lower the pH to the point that they can no longer grow, but something else can, and so on, until the environment is just right for wild yeast to activate. It is a succession that happens quicker for some than for others. When using just flour and water, many will grow a gas-producing bacteria that slows down the process. It can raise the starter to three and a half times its volume in a relatively short period--something to behold. Not to worry, it is harmless. In fact it is a bacteria sometimes used in other food fermentations like cheeses and vegetables, and it is all around us in the environment, including wheat fields and flour. It does not grow at a pH less than 4.8, and the specified fruit juices serve to keep the pH low enough to by-pass it. Things will still progress, but this is the point at which people get frustrated and quit, because when the pH drops below 4.8, and it will, the gassy bacteria stop growing. It will appear that the "yeast" died on you, when in fact, you haven't begun to grow yeast yet. But they will come -- really, they're already there. When the pH drops below 3.5 - 4 or so, the yeast will activate, begin to grow, and the starter will expand again. You just need to keep it fed and cared for until then. Once up and running, it will tolerate a wider pH range. Maintenance There are many opinions out there about how to maintain sourdough starter. Feel free to refresh and store it per the cookbook you'll be using most often. You can adjust the hydration up or down according to recipe requirements. The way I like to maintain mine, is to keep just 2 oz in an 8-oz jelly jar--the canning type with two-piece lid. To feed, I measure 1 oz of it into a bowl (discard the rest), add 1 oz bread flour and 1 oz water. Mix, then measure 2 oz of that back into the jar (rinsed out). This is actually tripling it since 1 oz is increased to 3 (with equal weights of flour and water), even though I only keep 2. The measuring is easy keeping everything 1 oz. When I want to build up the volume for baking, I double, triple or even quadruple the entire amount each time it peaks until there's enough for the recipe and an extra 2 oz to put back in the jar. Don't forget to save some. The character and flavor of new starter will improve quickest with a few more weeks of daily feeding at room temperature, but that is not a necessity for baking with it. The flavor-producing bacterial populations will shift and equilibrate in that time, but it is capable of raising bread whenever the yeast are active and vigorous. In the refrigerator, they will stay fairly active with once a week feeding. The longer you go between feedings, the more dormant it will become, but they can usually be resurrected with a few feedings at room temperature. Whenever you want to raise bread with it, plan on a few days of feeding beforehand to get it as strong as possible. You can use discards to make pancakes, crumpets and muffins, etc. If you want to store it in the refrigerator, first make sure it is active and vigorous. Then when it is ready to refresh, feed it and put it directly into the refrigerator. Most cookbooks recommend weekly feeding to keep it in good form, but most home bakers forget about it for weeks or months at a time. Take it out of the refrigerator, let it come to room temperature and rise if it will. After it peaks and starts to fall, feed and put it back into cold storage. If it doesn't rise, feed and keep it at room temperature; feed at least once a day until it is in good shape again. It sounds more complicated than it is, but you'll develop a pretty good feel for it as you go. The process is very flexible and established starters are actually very resilient. For the truly obsessed: To turn the starter into desem, feed with whole wheat flour and cold water, reducing the water to achieve a dough consistency. Knead it a bit and form it into a ball. Keep it in a cool spot (50-65F preferably) like a basement, cellar or wine refrigerator. Discard half and feed daily--weekly if kept in a regular refrigerator. The key is to not allow it to get warm. --------------- END bread-bakers.v107.n033 --------------- Copyright (c) 1996-2007 Regina Dwork and Jeffrey Dwork All Rights Reserved