Date: Saturday, 30 December 1995 bread-bakers-digest Saturday, 30 December 1995 Volume 06 : Number 055 Today's Subjects: Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #54 "falling" bread PEPPER/FENNEL BREAD Gluten Re:Gluten Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #54 RE: Yeast-free breads Altering recipes for machine bulk yeast Burned Bread Bread Machine Differences Re:Order of adding things Re: Yeast-free breads store bought mixes rising Re: VITAL WHEAT GLUTEN bread questions Wheat-free recipies Re: Honey and maple syrup in bread machine Re: Yeast-free breads Stollen Potato Bread Re: Converting "real" recipes to bread machine ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Blueiis1@aol.com Date: Sun, 24 Dec 1995 15:52:01 -0500 Subject: Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #54 Bill, I had the Welbuilt 1.5 lb machine. At first it worked great, then burned bread, doorstops, etc. I now have a ZO, what a difference! Debbie ------------------------------ From: UmTarek@aol.com Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 00:56:57 -0500 Subject: "falling" bread Hello, fellow bread bakers-- I'm having a problem with bread in my machine. It rises beautifully, but when it begins to bake, it "falls", leaving the top wrinkled. The taste and texture of the bread are very good, but the appearance lacks something. Any suggestions? Kim ------------------------------ From: CHEFLZ@aol.com Date: Sun, 24 Dec 1995 13:49:14 -0500 Subject: PEPPER/FENNEL BREAD GOOD, BUT SOMEWHAT SPICY: FOR 1.5 LB. MACHINES: use a Light Whole Wheat Recipe(or White), BUT also add 2t. Fennel Seeds,2t. onion flakes,2t. pepper.& 2t. Granulated Garlic Powder,& then proceed to mix,knead etc.(in the machine). COMMENTS, QUESTIONS, OR COMPLAINTS? SEND TO: CHEFLZ@AOL.COM ------------------------------ From: Joel.Ehrlich@salata.com (Joel Ehrlich) Date: 27 Dec 95 07:43:56 -0800 Subject: Gluten ow> From: CHEFLZ@aol.com ow> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 12:04:03 -0500 ow> Subject: VITAL WHEAT GLOUTEN(SP?) ow> If you use Vital Wheat Glouten(sp?) in regular unbleached flour, do ow> you need to use "Bread" Flour? No. One (level) tablespoon of gluten per cup of (U.S.) unbleached (all-purpose) flour is a good equivalent of (U.S.) "Bread" flour or (Canadian) "Strong" flour. Joel ------------------------------ From: aa122@detroit.freenet.org (John F Davis) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 1995 13:40:56 -0500 Subject: Re:Gluten LARRY ZIEGLER CHEFLZ@AOL.COM Asked: >>If you use Vital Wheat Glouten(sp?) in regular unbleached flour, do you need >>to use "Bread" Flour? The answer is usually NO. The major difference between the two flours is the amount of Gluten in them so if you are adding Gluten you are basically making the "All Purpose" stuff into "Bread" flour. - -- John F Davis In Delightful Detroit, Mi. aa122@detroit.freenet.org "Nothing adds excitement to your life like something that is clearly none of your business!" Battista ------------------------------ From: AFV63@aol.com Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 11:44:33 -0500 Subject: Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #54 Vital Wheat Gluten is a good addition to a bread formula and yes, you can use it with regular flour in place of bread flour. Usual usage rate is about 0.01-0.02 lb of Vital Wheat Gluten to 1 lb of flour but it varies depending on the type of bread you're making and the amount of dough development you're looking for. Use a lot if you're planning to make something like hearth breads or bagels which require the product hold it's own shape. Also use higher levels in a formula that has whole wheat flour or other grains or fruits to "dilute" the flour. You have to experiment a bit to get the right level for the formula you're working with. ------------------------------ From: Dave Hastings Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 09:18:21 -0800 Subject: RE: Yeast-free breads | From: bj3@ix.netcom.com (BJ) | Subject: Yeast-free breads | | In the recent past (or as far back as you can conveniently go), has anyone | submitted yeast-free bread recipes that you could forward to me??? I don't know if this is the sort of thing you're looking for, but the _Joy of Cooking_ has a couple of recipies for salt-rising bread. One based on potato pulp, and one on stone ground corn meal. Let me know if you can't get access to a copy of the book. I've never made either. I'm new here, so a short introduction is probably in order. I'm Dave Hastings. I live in the Seattle area (Carntion actually) I bake bread by hand (large bowl, large wooden spoon). - -daveh - -------------------- Dave Hastings daveh@microsoft.com I don't speak for Microsoft ------------------------------ From: esther@rochgte.fidonet.org (Esther Vail) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 13:08:55 -0800 Subject: Altering recipes for machine If you want to shape and bake the loaf manually after the machine has gone through the dough process, I have found no changes to be necessary, even for breads which include more flour than you would normally use in your machine. For a bread to be baked all the way in the machine, again, I have found no changes to be necessary other than to be sure you're not trying to use more flour than your machine can handle. This means finding recipes of about the right size, or perhaps cutting a recipe in half. This may not be true for all machines, but it has served me well in the original DAK machine (same as Welbilt). Naturally, in either case, you will place the ingredients in the machine in the same order you use for the recipes that come with the machine. Esther H. Vail, Rochester NY USA (esther@rochgte.fidonet.org) ------------------------------ From: amy@best.com Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 11:18:46 -0900 Subject: bulk yeast Ephraim Vishniac wrote: > LoisCon mentioned storing Red Star bulk yeast for a year in the > freezer. A friend sent me three vacuum-packed one-pound packages of > Fleischmann's yeast about a year and a half ago, and it's still > working fine. I keep the unopened packages in the freezer. When I open > one, I divide it into tight-sealing plastic containers and return all > but a few weeks' worth to the freezer. It seems to be keeping > perfectly. I've had good luck with bulk yeast also. I store a small portion in the fridge in a tupperware container, and keep the rest in the freezer. Every couple of months I proof some yeast before using it to make sure it is still active. My current yeast supply is over a year old now (those vacuum-pack bags go a long way). Even if you can't use the whole bag before it loses its strength, at about $2.50/lb at Costco it is still more economical than purchasing the 3-packet strips. Amy ------------------------------ From: Joel.Ehrlich@salata.com (Joel Ehrlich) Date: 27 Dec 95 07:48:13 -0800 Subject: Burned Bread ow> From: BILL.FLAVIN ow> Date: 20 Dec 95 11:21:49 EDT ow> Subject: Burned bread??? ow> Hi all, ow> I need some help. I've had and used the small Wel-Bilt machine ow> for about a year. Over that time, I've had very few failures. ow> Generally, I make the basic egg bread with additions such as ow> garlic, onion, oregano, chiles, cheese, etc. Occasionally, I'll ow> try something exotic. The problem is that of late, almost all the ow> loaves have come out extremely well done, almost burned. ow> The inside of the bread is ok -- a bit too dry -- but the crust ow> is way too dark, even on the light setting. And they don't seem ow> to be rising quite as much. Any ideas will be appreciated. You haven't given us much with which to work but... It almost sounds like your dough may be too dry causing your bread not to rise enough. With the Wel-Bilt and DAK machines I've noticed that, if the pan isn't fulled, all the heat gets applied to the part of the pan holding the bread. That gets too hot and the crust gets too dark. Joel ------------------------------ From: Joel.Ehrlich@salata.com (Joel Ehrlich) Date: 27 Dec 95 07:53:43 -0800 Subject: Bread Machine Differences ow> From: cmathew@iadfw.net (Craig & Joan Mathew) ow> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 09:19:18 -0600 (CST) ow> Subject: ??re: adding ingredients in bread machine ow> Hi all, ow> Although I don't own a bread machine (I use my KitchenAid Proline or ow> Cuisinart 14-cup for kneading), I often read the posts about bread ow> machines with interest, and sometimes pick up some nice recipes. ow> As I was reading the snippet above, I wondered why there would be ow> any particular sequence listed in adding ingredients to a bread ow> machine? I understand that perhaps things like raisins would go in ow> later, toward the end of the kneading cycle. Other than keeping the ow> salt away from the yeast, why would the initial sequence make any ow> difference? Is there some mechanical architecture to these bread ow> machines that mandates it? ow> Just wondering, When making bread by hand, you proof the yeast before adding it to the liquid ingredients. You also mix the dry ingredients into the liquid ingredients. In a bread machine, you do not proof the yeast. You combine the ingredients and start the machine. There is much greater opportunity for the salt to adversely affect the yeast under those circumstances. Joel ------------------------------ From: aa122@detroit.freenet.org (John F Davis) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 1995 13:42:16 -0500 Subject: Re:Order of adding things Joan asked: > As I was reading the snippet above, I wondered why there would be any >particular sequence listed in adding ingredients to a bread machine? I >understand that perhaps things like raisins would go in later, toward the >end of the kneading cycle. Other than keeping the salt away from the yeast, >why would the initial sequence make any difference? Is there some >mechanical architecture to these bread machines that mandates it? Normally it would not matter much however, In bread machines it is sometimes NECESSARY to have either flour or water on the bottom (Depends on the type of seal used on the paddle shaft, They have a kneading paddle that is driven through the BOTTOM of the bread pan). Second, some folks use the "Delay" feature so they can wake up to fresh baked bread in the morning and when doing this it is important that selected ingreadents (IE YEAST) be kept as far as possible from other ingreadents (IE WATER) or they may not work properly when the time comes. Thus the "Sequence of adding things" - -- John F Davis In Delightful Detroit, Mi. aa122@detroit.freenet.org "Nothing adds excitement to your life like something that is clearly none of your business!" Battista ------------------------------ From: jvandenb@mail.wincom.net Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 09:35:23 -0500 Subject: Re: Yeast-free breads Jeanne... Here's a recipe for whole wheat bread reciped from Jean Pare's Company's Coming Muffins & More Cookbook that may interest you. I don't think you can do it in a breadmaker though. Enjoy. Janine Whole Wheat Bread 2 c whole wheat flour 1 c all purpose flour 1/4 c granulated sugar 2 tsp baking powder 1 tsp baking soda 1 tsp salt 1 1/2 c buttermilk or sour milk 1/4 c molasses 1/4 c cooking oil In large bowl combine all six dry ingredients. Stir to combine thoroughly. Make a well in the center. In a small bowl put buttermilk, molasses and oil. Stir until molasses has thinned and mixed in. Pour into well. Stir just enough to combine. Turn into greased loaf pan 9 x 5 x 3 inch. Bake in 350 F (180 C) oven for 40 - 50 minutes. Remove from pan to cool. Serve with butter Graham Bread: use graham flour instead of whole wheat. > From: bj3@ix.netcom.com (BJ) > Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 22:29:22 -0800 > Subject: Yeast-free breads > Hi all, > In the recent past (or as far back as you can conveniently go), has anyone > submitted yeast-free bread recipes that you could forward to me??? Having a > great deal of trouble finding these - and if you go to any health food > store, there are lots of different breads made w/out yeast. - ---------8<------- ------------------------------ From: als@ultranet.com (Allan Sherman) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 1995 00:28:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: store bought mixes rising > >Gina Rodriguez asked in V 6 No 53: >I was told that store bought mixes have never risen well. I am going to try >all of the above and see if I start getting larger loaves! Does anyone know >if it is true about the store bought mixes? > >Gina We bought the "Classic Hearth International Bread Mix Collection" at Costco. All four 1-1/2 lb loaves rose perfectly in our Hitachi. The loaves are: Mediterranean: Olive and Garlic Provincal: Sun-Dried Tomato & Basil Southwestern: Jalapeno Cheese Hawaiian: Island Sweet Bread We enjoyed all four. The mix is made by Continental Mills in Seattle. More than a year ago we bought the "Krusteaz Gold Label Specialty Bread & Roll Mix Variety Pack" by the same manufacturer. The breads in this kit are more "conventional": Sour Dough, Honey Wheat Berry, Garden Herb, Harvest Wheat, Home Style, and Cracked Wheat. These mixes made much smaller loaves, as if intended for a 1-lb machine (the size was not specified). Many did not rise very well. We bought a second carton of the Krusteaz breads about a year ago, but three of the bags are still unused. I guess we are not very enthusiastic about that one, but we definately plan on a repeat purchase of International Collection the next time we see it at Costco.... -Al Sherman ------------------------------ From: bbriscoe@infolink.morris.mn.us (Bonnie Briscoe) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 00:14:47 -0600 Subject: Re: VITAL WHEAT GLUTEN Larry Ziegler asked, If you use Vital Wheat Glouten(sp?) in regular unbleached flour, do you need to use "Bread" Flour? In my experience, no. Adding a small amount of vital wheat gluten (called gluten flour by our food co-op supplier, but labeled "Wheat Gluten" on the carton) adds enough gluten to the unbleached flour that you do not also need to use bread flour. In fact, when I ran out of bread flour one time, I used just the plain unbleached flour (it's labeled "for bread" in the co-op supplier's catalog) in a recipe that uses no dark flour, and got the same result as I had obtained with bread flour in that recipe. When I use rye or whole wheat flours, or rolled oats or cornmeal, in my bread machine, I always add 1 1/2 to 2 tablespoons of gluten flour to help the bread rise. This is for a 1 1/2 pound loaf. If you use too much gluten flour, however, the bread can be tough and rubbery. Bonnie Briscoe ============================================================================ Bonnie Briscoe e-mail:bbriscoe@infolink.morris.mn.us Briscoe & Associates 500 East Third St. voice phone: (612)589-1258 Morris MN 56267 fax/modem: (612)589-1754 Language is all that separates us from the lower animals-- and from the bureaucrats. ============================================================================ ------------------------------ From: LoisCon@aol.com Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 00:03:12 -0500 Subject: bread questions Larry asked if he need to use "bread flour" if you add the vital wheat gluten to the all-purpose flour Larry, you can use the all-purpose flour. LoisCon@AOL.com Reid Furniss asked if there was a formula to convert real recipes to bread machine. Reid, we have a formula in our book, The Bread Machine Magic Book of Helpful Hints, page 120-121 of the new edition. It's just too long to copy here. LoisCon@AOL.com Jeanne asked for recipes for yeast-free breads. Try the book Easy Bread Making for Special Diets, Nicolette Dumke. published by Allergy Adapt, (303) 666-8253 OK for all of you who have asked here is that INCOMPLETE Schlotsky's Rolls recipe. If you can finish it, please let me know... SCHLOTSKY'S ROLLS INCOMPLETE... 1 cup milk, scalded 1/4 cup honey 1/4 cup margarine 1 teaspoon salt 1 package dry yeast 1/4 cup warm water 4 cups flour 1 large egg 1/2 teaspoon baking soda added to the warm milk.............and that's all I have. If anyone can finish please let me know. LoisCon@AOL.com Also Bread Machine Baking for Better Health (delicious bread Recipes for Brimming Good Health) by Maureen B. Keane and Daniella Chase Prima Publishing P.O. Box 1260BK Rocklin, CA 95677 (916) 786-0426 "The Gluten-Free Gourmet" by Betty Hagman. It is published by Henry Holt. The ISBN for your bookstore is 0-8050-1835-2. She has written a second book, "More from the Gluten-Free Gourmet" Hope these titles help you. LoisCon @AOL.com Bill F. is having trouble with burnt breads.Try taking them out 10 minutes earlier..they are probably done anyway if they are "dry". If you can cut some of the sugar, or honey that may help too. Sweeter breads tend to come out darker. LoisCon @AOL.com To Cindy with the Hitachi problems..have you tried warming your ingredients more?? LoisCon@AOL.com ------------------------------ From: schapin@smiley.mitre.org (Susan L Chapin) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 95 21:43:56 EST Subject: Wheat-free recipies Someone asked about wheat-free recipes. There is a distinction to be made between "wheat free" and "gluten free." I am allergic to wheat, but not to gluten, and I make many wonderful breads by using 1/2 cup vital wheat gluten and 2 1/2 cups other flours. Flours I use include: brown rice flour, barley flour, teff flour, oat flour, oat flakes, soy flour, amaranth flour, quinoa flour, and many more, including kamut flour. Kamut is a wheat, and I can tolerate it, and I use that as the basis for many of my breads. Spelt is a wheat, also, but I can't tolerate it at all. Breads made without wheat flour tend to, not be softer exactly, but to have a less chewy, resilient texture. But they still make great sandwiches, and the flavor can be as good as any wheat bread. If you are allergic to gluten, you can do something similar, but you need to use Xanthan gum instead of gluten, and I don't know much about that. Lois Conway writes in one of her books that she has tried it -- Lois, do you have any comments? Many of my recipes I created by starting with a wheat bread recipe and substituting. Others I just dreamed up. The basic recipe is: 2 3/8 tsp yeast 1/2 vital wheat gluten 2 1/2 cups other flours 1 cup + 2 TB liquid 1 1/2 TB honey or molassas 1 - 1 1/2 tsp salt Here's one recipe I like a lot. It is for a Breadman 1 1/2 lb loaf, using the medium cycle (2 1/2 hours total): Yeast: 2 3/8 tsp Dry group: Gluten: 1/2 cup Kamut flour: 1 1/2 cup Soy flour: 1/4 cup Oatmeal flakes: 3/4 cup Corn germ: 2 TB Wet group Water: 1 cup + 2 TB Canola oil: 1 1/2 TB Honey: 1 1/2 TB Salt: 1 1/4 tsp Corn germ: 2 tb Send me email to schapin@mitre.org if you want more details. - susan (schapin@mitre.org; the opinions above are my own and are not known to or endorsed by my employer) ------------------------------ From: bbriscoe@infolink.morris.mn.us (Bonnie Briscoe) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 00:15:04 -0600 Subject: Re: Honey and maple syrup in bread machine Ephraim Vishniac asked about using honey or maple syrup in the bread machine. I have found that if you successfully adapt a recipe to use a liquid sweetener such as honey, you can then use molasses or maple syrup without much difference except the flavor each gives to the bread. (The same appears to be true of using oil as the shortening ingredient--olive oil is great in herb bread, but you probably would want to use a vegetable oil in oatmeal bread.) Here's one of my recipes that can be made in a variety of ways: Your Choice Bread This bread offers lots of choices for sweeteners, grains, and additions--thus the name. 8 fluid ounces water 3 tablespoons light unsulphured molasses, honey, or real maple syrup--your choice 1 1/4 teaspoons salt 2 cups bread flour 1/2 cup oatmeal or yellow cornmeal--your choice 1/2 cup whole wheat or rye graham flour--your choice 2 tablespoons gluten flour 2 tablespoons wheat germ 1 1/2 tablespoons nonfat dry milk or powdered buttermilk--your choice 1 1/2 tablespoons butter 2 1/8 teaspoons active dry yeast 1/3 cup sesame seeds, unsalted roasted sunflower seeds, or chopped unsalted roasted peanuts--your choice 1. Place all ingredients in pan of bread machine in order listed, or in the order recommended for your machine. 2. Set controls for Basic bread with medium crust and start machine. Makes one 1 1/2-pound loaf. -- Bonnie Briscoe Enjoy! ============================================================================ Bonnie Briscoe e-mail:bbriscoe@infolink.morris.mn.us Briscoe & Associates 500 East Third St. voice phone: (612)589-1258 Morris MN 56267 fax/modem: (612)589-1754 Language is all that separates us from the lower animals-- and from the bureaucrats. ============================================================================ ------------------------------ From: bbriscoe@infolink.morris.mn.us (Bonnie Briscoe) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 00:15:00 -0600 Subject: Re: Yeast-free breads This yeast-free bread is also gluten-free. It was developed by a member of our food co-op, who provides it to anyone who is interested in gluten-free cooking. Yeast-Free Gluten-Free White Bread This white bread is very tasty and not as crumbly as some gluten-free breads are. 2 1/4 cups whole-grain rice flour 1/4 cup soy flour (or quinoa flour) 1/2 cup cornstarch 2 tablespoons potato starch flour 1 (1/4 ounce) envelope unflavored gelatin 1 teaspoon salt 1/3 cup sugar 3 teaspoons baking powder 1 teaspoon soda 4 eggs 1 1/2 cups buttermilk 3/4 cup small-curd cottage cheese 3 tablespoons oil 1. Preheat oven to 350=B0. Grease three small loaf pans (7 1/2 x 3 1/2 x 2 1/4 inches). 2. Sift all dry ingredients together 4 or 5 times. Place in large bowl. 3. In medium bowl, beat the eggs on high speed for 2 minutes until frothy. 4. Add buttermilk, cottage cheese, and oil to eggs and mix well. 5. Pour the wet ingredients into the dry mix and beat on high speed for 3 to 5 minutes. 6. Divide batter among the three prepared loaf pans. 7. Place all the pans on one cookie sheet (for ease of handling) and bake about 45 minutes. - Ruth Domingo submitted by Bonnie Briscoe Bonnie Briscoe e-mail:bbriscoe@infolink.morris.mn.us Briscoe & Associates 500 East Third St. voice phone: (612)589-1258 Morris MN 56267 fax/modem: (612)589-1754 Language is all that separates us from the lower animals-- ------------------------------ From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 17:35:24 -0600 (CST) Subject: Stollen >About this time last year my next door neighbor knocked at the back door >holding something wrapped in decorative towels. I opened the door and >she smiled and said "this is stolen". She then tried to hand it to me. >In that I did not know what "Stolen" was at that time (is that >spelling right, Stolen?), she had to tell me what it was and show me >the contents before I would touch it. It's pronounced "shtah-lin", accent on the first syllable. Stollen is the plural form, Stolle is the singular. Here's a recipe: STOLLEN 1 Cup raisins (opt.) 5 Cups sifted flour 1 Cup mixed candied fruit 2 Eggs 1/4 Cup orange juice 1 teaspoon lemon peel 1/2 Cup milk 1/4 teaspoon mace 1/2 Cup sugar 1 Cup chopped almonds 1 Cup butter 2 Tablespoon sugar 1 Package dry yeast 1/2 teaspoon cinnamon 1/2 Cup warm water Creamy frosting Combine raisins, if used, candied fruits, lemon peel and mace with orange juice. Allow mixture to stand, covered, about one hour or overnight refrigerated. Sprinkle yeast on warm water; stir to dissolve. Meanwhile, scald milk; add 1/2 cup sugar and 1/2 cup butter. Cool to lukewarm. Add 2 cups flour, eggs and yeast to milk mixture. Beat with electric mixture on medium speed for two minutes. Stir in fruit mixture and enough remaining flour, a little at a time, to make a dough that leaves the sides of the bowl and that can be handled easily. Turn onto lightly floured surface; knead until smooth and satiny, about 5 minutes. Place in lightly greased bowl; turn dough over to grease top. Cover and let rise in warm place until doubled, about two hours. Punch down dough; turn onto surface, knead a few times and divide in half. Cover and let rest five minutes. Roll each half into a 15 x 9" oval. Melt remaining 1/2 cup butter; brush part of it over each oval, saving what is not used for frosting. Sprinkle with two tablespoons sugar mixed with cinnamon. Fold each oval lengthwise in half to make a big Parkerhouse roll. Carefully lift folded-over rolls to a greased baking sheet and curve the ends slightly. Cover and let rise until doubled, 1 to 1 1/2 hours. Bake in moderate oven 350 degrees F. about 35 minutes, or until loaves are golden. While hot, brush with Creamy Frosting and decorate with colored sprinkles. Makes two large loaves. Creamy Frosting: To 1 cup sifted confectioners sugar add 1 tablespoon cream or milk and 1/4 cup melted butter. Stir until smooth. ------------------------------ From: gregfam@aa.net (Lee & Gretchen Gregory) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 15:25:50 -0800 Subject: Potato Bread Here's a great bread recipe I made the other day. Came out of a book someone on the list recommended to me--can't remember the title off hand. Gretchen POTATO BREAD 1 med.-lg. potato, about 1/2 lb. 2 T. honey 2 tsp. active dry yeast 1 T. oil, optional 1/4 c. warm water 6 c. whole wheat bread flour 1 c. fresh nonfat yogurt or buttermilk 2&1/2 tsp. sea salt 1 c. hot potato water Peel potato and trim off eyes and all dark spots. Rinse, quarter, and boil until tender. Drain, reserving water. Dissolve yeast in warm water. Mash potato and blend with liquids. The blender works well. Combine flour and salt, mixing them thoroughly. Combine liquids with drys. The dough will probably be a little bit stiff; depending on how much water your potato contained, it might be quite stiff. Add water on your hands as you knead about 20 minutes, until dough is very supple, soft, and bouncy. Form dough in ball and place, smooth side up, in a greased bowl. Cover and keep warm for about 1&1/2 hours. Poke center about 1/2" deep with wet finger--if hole doesn't fill in at all or if the dough sighs, it is ready for the next step. Press dough flat, form into a smooth round, and let rise again, about 45 minutes. Divide dough into 2 loaves, though if you've added extra potato flour or if your flour is very good or if you are a super kneader, there may be more dough than you require for two normal loaf pans. Each loaf should weigh about 1&3/4 pounds. Make hearth loaves --or just form a couple buns along with the two loaves. Let loaves rise in warm, humid place. Dust lightly with fine flour, if desired. If making hearth loaves, slash tops. Bake at 350 degrees nearly 1 hour. Note: You can sub leftover mashed potatoes in recipe, using 1-1&1/2 cups. You may desire to reduce salt in recipe if mashed potatoes contain butter and salt. Also, for richer flavor and better rise, add egg as part of the liquid measure. For a close-textured crumb, particularly pale and milk-sweet, stir in 6 tablespoons powdered milk into dry ingredients. This bread is light, airy, and delicious. Sesame Potato Bread: Use sesame oil for the oil measure in the bread. Roll dough in sesame seeds after shaping loaf. This is particularly delicious bread. Lee & Gretchen Gregory ************************************************ * ASLAN WEB DESIGN * * Website Design and Storage Svc. * * http://www.aa.net/~gregfam/aslan.htm * * NATURAL NUTRITION * * http://www.aa.net/~gregfam/nutritio.htm * ************************************************ ------------------------------ From: bbriscoe@infolink.morris.mn.us (Bonnie Briscoe) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 00:14:52 -0600 Subject: Re: Converting "real" recipes to bread machine Once you are familiar with how your bread machine handles different combinations of flours and liquids, start to experiment with "old favorite" bread recipes that have ingredient amounts that are easy to divide in half. For example, if your machine takes 3 cups of flour, look for standard bread recipes that call for about 6 cups of flour. If the original recipe calls for one egg, remember that a large egg equals 1/4 cup liquid, and adjust the other liquid ingredients to account for this amount. Plan to be on hand when your newly converted recipe is mixing in the bread machine, so you can add a tablespoon of flour if the dough is too soft, or a teaspoon of water if it is too firm. You may need to experiment a bit to get the amounts right. Use the recipes you've tried from your bread machine manual as a guide in deciding whether the proportions of liquid and dry ingredients seem to be appropriate. Here are two of my favorite "converted" breads: Caraway Cheese Bread (in the machine) 1/2 can Cheddar Cheese soup, undiluted 1 large egg 1/2 cup plus 2 tablespoons water 1 1/4 teaspoons salt 3 cups bread flour 1 tablespoon sugar 1 1/2 teaspoons caraway seed 1/4 cup grated Parmesan cheese 1 tablespoon butter 2 teaspoons (level) active dry yeast 1. Divide can of soup evenly (I use two margarine tubs and weigh them). Seal and freeze second portion for next batch of bread. 2. Place all ingredients in pan of bread machine in order listed, or in the order recommended for your machine. 3. Set controls for Basic bread with medium crust and start machine. Makes one 1 1/2-pound loaf. Caraway Cheese Bread (original ingredients for 2 loaves) 1 can Cheddar Cheese soup, undiluted 2 large eggs 1 1/2 cups warm water 3 teaspoons salt 6 1/2 to 7 cups bread flour 2 tablespoons sugar 1 tablespoon caraway seed 1/2 cup grated Parmesan cheese 2 tablespoons butter 2 packages active dry yeast Most of the ingredients were divided in half, but I used slightly less than half the amount of water so that I would not exceed the maximum of 3 cups of flour for my bread machine. (This also has the effect of intensifying the cheese flavor.) I also used slightly less than half the amount of yeast, because this bread rises very high and will overflow the pan if I don't use LEVEL teaspoons of yeast. The amount of salt was reduced slightly below half due to personal taste. Shredded Wheat Bread (in the machine) 2 shredded wheat biscuits 11 fluid ounces (1 cup plus 3 tablespoons) boiling water 3 tablespoons honey 2 cups bread flour or unbleached flour 3/4 cup whole wheat bread flour 1 1/4 teaspoons salt 1 1/2 tablespoons gluten flour 2 tablespoons wheat germ 2 tablespoons butter 2 teaspoons active dry yeast 1. Crumble shredded wheat biscuits into bread machine pan. Add honey and boiling water, stir and let stand 20 to 30 minutes, until lukewarm. 2. Add remaining ingredients in order recommended by bread machine manufacturer. Set controls for regular or basic bread. Makes one 1 1/2-pound loaf. Shredded Wheat Bread (original ingredients for 2 loaves) 4 shredded wheat biscuits 2 1/4 cups boiling water 1/3 cup honey 5 to 6 cups flour 1 tablespoon salt 2 tablespoons sugar 3 tablespoons butter 2 packages active dry yeast This one has a few more changes in ingredients, but it was a good one to try because the original made 3 pounds of bread. I wanted to add more fiber, so I substituted whole wheat flour and wheat germ for some of the white flour. By using only 3/4 cup of WW flour, I left room in the machine for the shredded wheat, gluten flour, and wheat germ. I used slightly more than half the original amount of honey, but omitted the sugar. The amount of butter is slightly more than half the original amount because I like the flavor and texture it gives, but you could reduce it to 1 1/2 tablespoons if you like. The first time I made this in the machine, I had to increase the amount of water slightly, so the machine recipe has a bit more than half as much water as the original. These have become two of our favorite breads in the machine. I make them more often now than in the past, because both were rather sticky and difficult to handle when made by hand. Converting your "old favorites" is definitely worth the effort! Enjoy! Bonnie Briscoe ============================================================================ Bonnie Briscoe e-mail:bbriscoe@infolink.morris.mn.us Briscoe & Associates 500 East Third St. voice phone: (612)589-1258 Morris MN 56267 fax/modem: (612)589-1754 Language is all that separates us from the lower animals-- and from the bureaucrats. ============================================================================ ------------------------------ End of bread-bakers-digest V6 #55 ********************************* bread-bakers-digest Saturday, 6 January 1996 Volume 06 : Number 056 Today's Subjects: Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #54 Damark versus Kenmore Label underneath? Refrigerating dough falling loaves Falling Bread Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #54 What To Buy .sig lines honey bread The proof is in the... er... bread Argh!!!!/MCv3/Help!!! English muffins Thanks to all & French Bread Recipe Italian Cracked Wheat And Pepper Bread + Yeast Free Bread ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Blanche007@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 00:29:55 -0500 Subject: Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #54 Blue Wave Max - thanks so much for your in-depth answer about the microwave question. I'm writing a book that includes microwave cooking - may I quote your wopnderfully worded information? ------------------------------ From: "Julie Johnson" Date: 31 Dec 95 09:26:10 EST Subject: Damark versus Kenmore Label underneath? We purchased an $80 breadmaker from Damark. We removed the sticker that was covered the branded label and saw the words Kenmore. I assume a Sears product?? Any ideas or info on this??? ------------------------------ From: Gene Haldas Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 11:47:18 -0800 Subject: Refrigerating dough I have a recipe for a stollen that requires the dough be refrigerated overnight. I have baked the stollen both after the prolonged cooling and no cooling at all. I could not tell the difference. Could someone explain what cooling the dough does? ------------------------------ From: LoisCon@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 13:33:51 -0500 Subject: falling loaves Kim asked why her bread "falls"...Kim, try reducing the yeast. It sounds as if your bread is overproofing. It rises too high and then deflates. Another cause may be too much liquid. Try reducing the yeast first and then try reducing the liquid. If you need me write me at: LoisCon@AOL.com ------------------------------ From: Joel.Ehrlich@salata.com (Joel Ehrlich) Date: 31 Dec 95 07:29:20 -0800 Subject: Falling Bread ow> From: UmTarek@aol.com ow> Hello, fellow bread bakers-- ow> I'm having a problem with bread in my machine. It rises beautifully, ow> but when it begins to bake, it "falls", leaving the top wrinkled. The ow> taste and texture of the bread are very good, but the appearance lacks ow> something. Any suggestions? Too much liquid. Cut back on the amount of liquid you add to the dry ingredients. Remember, the amount of liquid needed varies because no two batches of flour have the same moisture content. Joel ------------------------------ From: Blanche007@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 00:23:05 -0500 Subject: Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #54 re vital wheat gluten: Larry, too much gluten in your dough will cause your bread to be dry and tough. Don't use both extra gluten and high gluten flour. I love King Arthur Flour - can you get it where you live? If not, look for a flour that has between 12 and 14 grams of protein per cup (check the panal on the package - the measurments are usually per 1/4 cup). Don't forget that whole wheat and other "dark" flours have less gluten than white. Rye flour is extremely low in gluten. Have you tried either the King Arthur "Special" or my product, Lotra Brody's Bread Dough Enhancer? ------------------------------ From: Bonnie Pollack Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 15:57:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: What To Buy I joined the list because I thought I had bought a breadmaker. I returned it and am still looking for one. If I ask for suggestions I will get more than the list cares to read. I do not want a Hitachi, the one I tried out went up in smoke. Are new ones coming out with a more store bread look? worth the wait? I want a dependable and easy model that allows me to stop for dough and also stop to add nuts and fruit. Oh what to buy? I thought I wanted the Breadman +. On the 28th of Jan QVC Network will have a horizontal welbuilt as a special value? I am perplexed and want to make bread the 90's way....Bonnie E-mail me privately so the list does not have to suffer. ------------------------------ From: Reggie Dwork Date: Sat, 06 Jan 1996 11:58:00 -0800 Subject: .sig lines Hi everyone, We would find it extremely helpful if folks who have long .sig files or beautiful pictures reduce them to no more then 5 lines. Although we find the pictures really pretty to look at and the texts interesting/funny some of them are getting a bit large/long. We am working on archiving all 5+ years of the digests and having difficulty with the sig lines. Also, we know that many of you keep the digests as they come out and storage might be a problem for some of these people. So if you could do this for us, we sure would appreciate it. Thanks, Reggie & Jeff - -- Reggie & Jeff Dwork Owners, eat-lf mailing list and bread-bakers mailing list eat-lf-admin@jeff-and-reggie.com bread-bakers-admin@jeff-and-reggie.com ------------------------------ From: jguevara@spin.com.mx (Jenka Guevara) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 17:30:19 -0600 Subject: honey bread Marta Martin from the LowFat group sent me this recipe, which I wanted to share with all of you, it came out delicious, and I omitted the butter, with no adverse results! Jenka HONEY OATMEAL BREAD (for ABM) one cup of water 1 tbs butter 1/4 cup honey 1 tsp salt 1/2 cup oats 2 cups flour 1 tsp yeast Add ingredients in order listed above into pan of bread machine. Use regular or basic cycle (light). Enjoy! Fat content can be lowered by using applesauce instead of butter. Makes a one pound loaf. *********************************** * Jenka Guevara * * American School Foundation * * Mexico City * * jguevara@spin.unam.mx * *********************************** ------------------------------ From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 1996 04:24:03 -0600 (CST) Subject: The proof is in the... er... bread > When making bread by hand, you proof the yeast before adding it to the > liquid ingredients. You also mix the dry ingredients into the liquid > ingredients. Once in a fit of madness, I didn't proof the yeast but instead tossed it dry into the flour, then kneaded it as usual. That batch of dough took *forever* to rise! While trying to decide what was wrong with the dough, I looked at it and could see the little granules of undissolved yeast underneath the surface. After that, I kept pulling it out and kneading it but still, it took like 18 hours for the first rise. Eventually the yeast dissolved into the dough and the bread baked out as usual (a couple days later). Was a weird experiment in baking bread. > Graham Bread: use graham flour instead of whole wheat. Really, I thought graham flour *was* whole wheat flour. ------------------------------ From: gourmet@mail.utexas.edu Date: Tue, 02 Jan 1996 06:06:04 -0500 Subject: Argh!!!!/MCv3/Help!!! Sorry to be doing this mass posting, but I have a big favor. Due to an undocumented feature in the new version of MCv3 combined with my lack of adequate backup (for those who are using the new version, if you uninstall and reinstall MCv3, be sure to keep separate backups, in a separate subdirectory *not* under the primary MCv3 one. One on floppy is even better), I have lost *all* of my recipes. I'm sure I can put together, from archives, etc., the virtual cookbook I had created. However, my personal recipes are gone, particularly since I threw away a lot of the hard copies once I entered them into MCII. Therefore, I am hoping one or several kind souls (who also keeps track of recipe posters) will have copies of at least some of the recipes I've posted over time. If so, I would very much appreciate getting copies. I'm sure I can put together, from archives, etc., the virtual cookbook I had created. However, my personal recipes are gone, particularly since I threw away a lot of the hard copies once I entered them into MCII. Thanks very much for any help I get with recreating my cookbook. Cindy ------------------------------ From: TLMVC@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 13:15:35 -0500 Subject: English muffins In December Dennis asked for an English Muffin recipe. This is a recipe that has been handed down in our family. { Exported from MasterCook Mac } Charls English Muffins Recipe By: Serving Size: 1 Preparation Time: 0:00 Categories: Bread Amount Measure Ingredient Preparation Method 1/2 cup milk scalded 1/4 cup shortening 1 1/2 teaspoons salt 1 tablespoon sugar 1/2 cup water room temperature 1 package yeast 3 cups flour sifted 4 tablespoons white cornmeal Combine milk, shortening, salt and sugar. Cool to lukewarm by adding water. Dissolve yeast as directed on package. Add to milk mixture and stir well. Add flour and mix until a soft dough is formed. Roll out on floured board to 1/4 inch thickness. Cut with a 3 1/2 inch round cutter. Place on a baking sheet that has been sprinkled with 2 tablespoons cornmeal. Sprinkle tops of muffins with additional 2 tablespoons cornmeal. Let rise in a warm place(85-90 degrees) until double in bulk-about 1 hour. Bake sowly on a hot, ungreased griddle until brown, about 7 minutes on each side. Split muffins, toast and serve with butter and marmalade. ----- I hope this helps. Terri ------------------------------ From: DebReeves@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 21:30:15 -0500 Subject: Thanks to all & French Bread Recipe Thanks to all for the tip about using gluten in the bread machine. I tried it today and my favorite bread recipe came out lighter and better than ever. I have had a Zoji machine for about two years now and I love it. Here is the recipe I make most often because it is low fat and delicious too. Hope you all enjoy it. DebReeves@aol.com * Exported from MasterCook II * French Honey Bread Recipe By : The Bread Machine Cookbook Serving Size : 10 Preparation Time :0:00 Categories : Breads Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method - -------- ------------ -------------------------------- 1 1/8 c water 1 tbsp honey 1 tbsp olive oil 1 tsp salt 1 tsp sugar 3 c bread flour 3 tbsp gluten 2 1/2 tsp yeast Put all ingredients into bread machine according to your directions. Wonderful, slightly sweet French bread with a light, crispy crust. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - NOTES : This recipe makes a 2 lb (large) loaf. ------------------------------ From: Reggie Dwork Date: Thu, 04 Jan 1996 21:42:17 -0800 Subject: Italian Cracked Wheat And Pepper Bread + The first is the original recipe...the second is my version. I must say ... mine is really tasty also!! Reggie * Exported from MasterCook II * Italian Cracked Wheat And Pepper Bread Recipe By : The Best Bread Machine Cookbook Ever, Madge Rosenberg Serving Size : 16 Preparation Time :0:00 Categories : Bread Machine Low Fat Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method - -------- ------------ -------------------------------- 1 1/2 Lb Loaf: -- (1 lb loaf:) 2 1/4 Tsp Active Dry Yeast -- (1 1/2 t) 2 1/2 C Bread Flour -- (1 2/3 C) 3/4 C Cracked Wheat -- (1/2 C) 1 1/2 Tbsp Sugar -- (1 T) 3 Tbsp Wheat Germ -- T) 3/4 Tsp Black Pepper -- coarsely cracked, -- (1/2 t) 1 1/2 tsp Salt -- (1 t) 1 1/2 tbsp Olive Oil -- (1 T) 1 1/2 C Water -- (3/4 C + 2 T) Minestrone and vegetable soup taste even better with this spicy, crunchy bread,and it can make a fried egg sandwich a whole new experience. Toast slices and use as a base for eggs Benedict or rub with olive oil, cut into fingers, toast, and you will have a rustic, portable hors d'oeuvre. Add all ingredients in the order suggested by your bread machine manual and process on the basic bread cycle according to the manufacturer's directions. Let the loaf cool before slicing. Entered into MasterCook II by Reggie Dwork reggie@jeff-and-reggie.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - * Exported from MasterCook II * Reggie's Version Of Italian Cracked Wheat Bread Recipe By : modified from The Best Bread Machine Cookbook Ever Serving Size : 16 Preparation Time :0:00 Categories : Bread Machine Italian Low Fat Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method - -------- ------------ -------------------------------- 1 1/2 Lb Loaf: -- (1 lb loaf:) 2 1/4 Tsp Active Dry Yeast -- (1 1/2 t) 2 1/2 C Bread Flour -- (1 2/3 C) 3/4 C Cracked Wheat -- (1/2 C) 1 1/2 Tbsp Sugar -- (1 T) 1 1/2 Tsp Salt -- (1 t) 1 Tbsp Olive Oil -- (2 t) 1 1/4 C Water -- (3/4 C + 2 T) Since I can't eat anything with pepper in it this is my version of this bread. I must say that it was EXCELLENT - even though I didn't have any wheat germ to add (original recipe calls for wheat germ 3 T (2 T). The next time I made this (the next day) I tossed in some toasted sesame seeds and it was really good. Entered into MasterCook II and tested for you by Reggie Dwork reggie@jeff-and-reggie.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: Joel.Ehrlich@salata.com (Joel Ehrlich) Date: 31 Dec 95 07:39:45 -0800 Subject: Yeast Free Bread ow> From: Dave Hastings ow> | From: bj3@ix.netcom.com (BJ) ow> | Subject: Yeast-free breads ow> | ow> ow> | In the recent past (or as far back as you can conveniently go), has ow> anyone | submitted yeast-free bread recipes that you could forward to ow> me??? ow> I don't know if this is the sort of thing you're looking for, but the ow> _Joy of Cooking_ has a couple of recipies for salt-rising bread. One ow> based on potato pulp, and one on stone ground corn meal. Let me know ow> if you can't get access to a copy of the book. I've never made ow> either. ow> I'm new here, so a short introduction is probably in order. I'm Dave ow> Hastings. I live in the Seattle area (Carntion actually) I bake bread ow> by hand (large bowl, large wooden spoon). ow> - -daveh Those breads are _not_ yeast free. They use native or "wild" yeast instead of commercial yeast. That is the reason the initial sponge is allowed to sit out in the open for a period of time. It is where the native yeast (which is _everywhere_) comes into contact with the mix. What that means is, just as with a true sourdough bread, these breads rise due to the action of yeast. They are most decidedly not yeast free. Joel ------------------------------ End of bread-bakers-digest V6 #56 ********************************* bread-bakers-digest Sunday, 14 January 1996 Volume 06 : Number 057 Today's Subjects: Cracked Wheat??? Need Receipe sweet bread Re: programmable bread machines not-so-sour sourdough two questions, please FAQ Hitachi vs Zoji Basic Questions Disaster My experience with Chefmate ABM Greetings and Questions/ABM [none] Assorted subjects ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randell@tricon.net Date: Mon, 8 Jan 96 12:56:55 PST Subject: Cracked Wheat??? Could someone please give me a phone number for a catalog where I can order cracked wheat? I have tried all the local groceries & health stores in our area - nothing. Thanks Sherry-TN ------------------------------ From: Penchard@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 16:48:02 -0500 Subject: Need Receipe I am new to this digest (two issues) and enjoy it very much. I am looking for (2) recipes for whole wheat bread, one with olives and one with sun-dried tomatoes. Can anyone help? Thanks, Penchard ------------------------------ From: bzwax@tiac.net (Rich & Debbie) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 08:42:07 -0500 Subject: sweet bread Howdy, folks: I'm new to this list and have really enjoyed the first edition I just received. I am also fairly new to bread baking. Though I cooked professionally for years, I was never a baker and now find myself FASCINATED by the art of it. My question is about baking tender, sweet bread. What level of gluten/type of flour should I be thinking of using for, say, a yeast-raised coffee cake? Thanks- Debbie Bier Concord, MA ------------------------------ From: Theresa Wild Date: Thu, 11 Jan 96 19:43:59 EST Subject: Re: programmable bread machines Does anyone have any info on programmable bread machines? My parents would like to get a bread machine, but need to make low or gluten free breads. My understanding is that the times needed for mixing/baking are different than the factory programmed machines. They are currently obtaining a book from King Arthur's Flour on baking gluten free. Any and all suggestions/recipes welcome. Thanks, Terry Wild twild@uriacc.uri.edu ------------------------------ From: "Michael Greenberg, MD" Date: Sat, 06 Jan 1996 17:52:19 -0800 Subject: not-so-sour sourdough Dear fellow sourdough enthusiasts, I have a problem. I have a great sourdough starter that I cultivated from wild San Francisco yeast. It proofs great, but no matter how long I leave it out to proof (and sour) I can't seem to get it to develop the typical sourdough flavor. I have even tried adding rye flour which I am told has a propensity to feed the lactobacilli that yield the sourness. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Michael Greenberg San Francisco, CA ------------------------------ From: jguevara@spin.com.mx (Jenka Guevara) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 23:23:33 -0600 Subject: two questions, please The best for 1996 for all of you. Now my two questions, How to proof yeast my bread is not rising always, I want to test my yeast, but do not remember how to do it. The hole at the bottom of bread What can be done to make this smaller? or how do you cut the bread to minimize the effects of this hole? Thanks to all for your recommendations on the list, and in advance thanks to whoever helps with my questions Jenka *********************************** * Jenka Guevara * * American School Foundation * * Mexico City * * jguevara@spin.com.mx * *********************************** ------------------------------ From: Reggie Dwork Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 13:06:12 -0800 Subject: FAQ A couple of friends (list members) have begun to write up a FAQ for bbd. We need your input. We are going to make a document that is related to consumer bread machine recommendations. Please send me letters about your brand of bread machine...likes, dislikes, anything you want to share. Could you also send me questions that you think should be included in the FAQ?? We really appreciate your help with this. We want to make the FAQ and related documents as user-friendly and helpful as possible. Your input will definitely be needed in this. Thanks, Reggie - -- Reggie & Jeff Dwork Owners, eat-lf mailing list and bread-bakers mailing list eat-lf-admin@jeff-and-reggie.com bread-bakers-admin@jeff-and-reggie.com ------------------------------ From: dorothy talbott Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 18:38:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Hitachi vs Zoji I think this is the way to do this...After reading all of the negative comments regarding Hitachi, and finally understanding that it *WAS* the machine and *not* me, we took our machine back to Best Products where we had purchased it TEN months ago...we were amazed when they (1) refused the "lovely" garlic and parmesean cheese doorstop that I had baked and (2) gave us substantical credit on our purchase of a Zojir...machine. It seemed to garner the greatest praise from the list. Many loaves later, after all the Christmas holidays provides lots of eaters and opportunites for bread making, I would like to sincerely thank all of you for showing me that I was not losing my mind or my bread making ability. For that, I and my husband are deeply grateful!! Kay Talbott ktalbott@nccu.edu South Brunswick Middle School Southport, NC 28461 ------------------------------ From: Bonnie Pollack Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 18:46:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Basic Questions I finally bought a breadmaker. The " sale " did it after all that research. I love it (snowed in with my Toastmaster Breadbox) #1. Why can't I use all purpose flour. I have some to get rid of two large packages #2 What is gluten and where is it sold? And if I have to add it, in what quantity? #3 Can bread be salt or sugar free or does the yeast need them to rise? #4 What is "proof the yeast" #5 Why do measurements have to be so exact? I cook with "pinches" and get crazy when asked to do something EXACTLY. I have most of my trouble with the yeast packets. Some of the recipes ask for a 1/4th more or less. I dump the entire packet and it seems ok. Much thanks for the help you all gave me in my efforts to find a breadmaker. This is a most awesome list. Thanks in advance for help with these questions. Bonnie Bpollack@umd5.umd.edu ------------------------------ From: sheila@freenet.victoria.bc.ca (Sheila Bluett) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 13:51:24 -0800 Subject: Disaster Hello people. I am very new to this list and also very new to bread machines.If you have heard all this before, please bear with me. My family got together and bought me a Black and Decker machine for xmas and I have been having great fun trying out different things. My first two loaves, one white bread and one whole wheat, were edible but nothing to brag about. So armed with an instant thermometer I made sure the liquid was at the right temperature and tried another loaf of white bread and a raisin loaf, both of which were just great. Then came an absolute disaster. I thought I would make a loaf of french bread to accompany the dinner meal. According to the book that came with the machine, the liquid required is just water, which is what gives it a nice crust. Well, a nice crust I got, but it didn't rise and the inside of the loaf you could patch a hole in the wall with. Even the local seagulls tried to bury it! Does anyone have a recipe that has been tried and was a success for french bread? Many thanks to the one's that make this list possible, and to all you people so willing to help people like me. Sheila ------------------------------ From: pasquale@lanl.gov (Gina Pasquale) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 10:39:23 -0700 Subject: My experience with Chefmate ABM Hi everyone, I enjoy this bread baking list so much and have gotten many wonderful recipes! I've decided to share some of my experiences with my Chefmate (Seiko) bread machine. I live at high altitude (6400') and have always had a problem with bread not rising enough before baking, unless I use all white bread flour. I tried adding lots of gluten, but that didn't help. I also made sure the water content was correct. Then I noticed something: my bread machine has 3 rise cycles! During the first 2 cycles, the bread rose great. On the 3rd rise cycle, the bread didn't rise so well and the baked loaf was always too small in my opinion. So, last weekend I just used the dough cycle and took the bread out (only 1 rise in the dough cycle). I shaped the loaf and put it in a pan to rise. It only took about 20 min to rise way above the pan (high altitude and a warm oven to rise in account for this, I think). I baked the loaf for 40 mins in 350 deg oven and had the best loaf ever! So, if other people like me are having problems with a Chefmate brand, just try what I did and you'll be pleasantly surprised! And it almost feels like you're making bread from "scratch"! :-) Happy baking, Gina ------------------------------ From: "Butts, Diane" Date: Thu, 11 Jan 96 7:38:47 -0500 Subject: Greetings and Questions/ABM Hello everyone.... I'm new to the list and am enjoying it already. I received a Breadman Plus machine for Christmas and have gotten mixed results. I also received a Pizza Stone so the first dough I tried was pizza crust. It has turned out great, due in part I'm sure to the stone...... I also tried a Pineapple Coconut bread with cream cheese. I got the recipe from a bread machine cookbook, which called for baking it on the "regular" cycle but I used the dough cycle and re-shaped it for a loaf pan and baked it in the oven. It also turned out very nicely. Now for my problem that I'm hoping you all can help me with..... Whenever I make the dough for rolls, it seems to do fine until I bake them. Although they are soft inside, the outside is too hard and the next day, almost inedible. What am I doing wrong??? I usually put the dough in the oven to rise [warmed to 250 degrees, then turned off] with a towel over the bread in the muffin tins. Perhaps the oven rising is the problem. Please help. I'd appreciate a private reply in addition to the list. thanks. *************************** Diane Butts phone: 202-501-7117 fax: 202-501-6093 e-mail: dbutts@usia.gov **************************** ------------------------------ From: gourmet@mail.utexas.edu Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 13:15:06 -0500 Subject: [none] First of all, a belated thank you to everyone who was so helpful during my recipe "crisis." Fortunately, I was even luckier (chalk it up to dumb luck) than I thought. I don't remember when or why, but I obviously made an export file of all the recipes that I had in Mastercook not too long before the end of the year. While I was cleaning off the hard drive this week, I lucked onto them. As partial repayment for everyone's help, I'm enclosing two recipes from the order form that several of you asked me about a while ago. (In addition to cleaning the hard drive, we're doing some major house cleaning as well, and I finally came across this today.) For those of you who asked me for the address, here it is: Robert Linn P.O. Box 2586 Edmund, OK 73083-2586 (800) 800-8520/(405) 359-9596 We have bought several knives from him, for ourselves and gifts. We are very happy with them; in our opinion, they are the best we've seen. As always, standard disclaimer applies. YMMV. Thanks again, everyone. Cindy P.S. Sorry about the confusing directions for Karen's Egg Bread. It is taken pretty much word-for-word from the order form. * Exported from MasterCook * Karen's Egg Bread Recipe By : Appalachian Bow Bread Knife Order Form Serving Size : 40 Preparation Time :0:00 Categories : Breads, Yeast Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method - -------- ------------ -------------------------------- 2 pkg Yeast 1 tsp Sugar 1/2 cup Water -- warm 3 Tbsp Oil 3/4 cup Sugar 1 Tbsp Salt 3 Eggs 10 cups Flour -- or as little as 8 c 1 Egg White Sesame Seeds Add yeast mixture to above. Add 3 cups water. Add flour. Knead, let rise twice, ro.l out into four loaves. Brush with egg white. Sprinkle with sesame seeds. Let rise. Bake 30 minutes at 350 degrees or until golden. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - * Exported from MasterCook * Mama's Monkey Bread Recipe By : Appalachian Bow Bread Knife Order Form Serving Size : 40 Preparation Time :0:00 Categories : Breads, Yeast Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method - -------- ------------ -------------------------------- 1 qt Milk 1/4 cup Sugar 4 tsp Salt 2 Tbsp Shortening 1 pkg Yeast 1/4 cup Water -- warm 12 cups Flour -- or less, as needed 3/4 lb Butter -- melted, more as need Scald milk; add sugar, salt, and shortening. Cool mixture to lukewarm; add yeast that has been softened in warm water. Sift flour; use as much as needed to make dough stiff enough to handle. Add flour gradually -- knead until smooth and satiny. Shape into 4 loaves, brush witha little melted butter, let rise. Cut loaves into thick slices, dip into melted butter, place in pan, and let rise again. Bake in hot oven (400-425 degrees F) until golden and crusty, about 40 minutes. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: Reggie Dwork Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 16:23:17 -0800 Subject: Assorted subjects Hi everyone, I have a few things I wanted to share with you. I recently had need to replace my ZO baking pan (the seal was giving out on the bottom so it started to leak). I called Irwin of Delta Rehab and he sold me a new baking pan for a really excellent price...lower then ZO offers it. I also decided to buy a Miracle Mill and spoke with him about that. So he sent them to me. When the box arrived I got really excited and got the 2 items out and decided to make a loaf of bread. I got all the ingredients into the baking pan and put it in the machine. After the warm up cycle, when the knead started...the pan popped out of the machine. I thought I had not seated it properly. So I stopped the machine. This happened a couple of times. By then I was pretty frustrated. I ended up dumping the ingredients. I called Irwin and he was soooo incredibly helpful. I explained the problem to him and he knew right away what was wrong. The wrong baking pan was sent to me. He was sooooo sorry and apologetic. He overnite shipped the correct pan to me and I returned the incorrect one to him. Well, the next day I decided to crack some wheatberries in the Miracle Mill. Let me tell you, it was quiet, quick and really worked better then I could have ever guessed. I am really happy that Irwin makes these products available to everyone and at such great prices and that he stands behind his products. I highly recommend him if you have need of his services and/or products. Next, we have more then 1800 subscribers on list now. This is up from 1200 when we took the list over on June 27, 1995!! I am really happy how this continues to grow and for all the wonderful help and knowledge that all of you so willingly share with each other. Now, I know many of you have written to me about getting back issues of bbd. I am very busy getting it cleaned up and archived. It will be ready pretty soon. I will post a notice when it is up and how you can access it. I pulled a recipe out of one of the back issues and wanted to re-share it with all of you...it is wonderful!! And it smelled heavenly while it was baking. * Exported from MasterCook II * Apple Cider Cinnamon Bread Recipe By : bread-bakers-digest archive Serving Size : 16 Preparation Time :0:00 Categories : Bread Machine Low Fat Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method - -------- ------------ -------------------------------- 1 1/2 Lb Loaf: 2 1/4 Tsp Active Dry Yeast 3 C Bread Flour 1 Tsp Cinnamon 2 Tbsp Brown Sugar 1 Tbsp Wonderslim -- *see NOTE 1 Tsp Salt 1 1/4 C Apple Cider -- or applejuice *NOTE: The original recipe used 2 T butter. Put in bread baking pan per manufacturer's directions and bake. I used light crust. This is FABULOUS!! Entered into MasterCook II and tested for you by Reggie Dwork - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - NOTES : Cal 108.7 Fat 0.5g Carbs 22.4g Dietary Fiber 0.9g Protein 3.3g Sodium 135mg CFF 4% Reggie ------------------------------ End of bread-bakers-digest V6 #57 ********************************* bread-bakers-digest Saturday, 20 January 1996 Volume 06 : Number 058 Today's Subjects: Cracked wheat - where? STORING BREAD & ADDING LIQUOR sourdough info Sun-Dried Tomato Herb Bread Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #57 Three Olive Breads THANKS A LOT! Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #57 Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #57 Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #57 Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #57 Re: Bread bakers digest list... Cheese Danish MasterCook Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #57 stuck bread pan Question re American Harvest Machine Re: Gluten all purpose flour bread Re: Apple Cider Cinnamon Bread recipe factory programmed machines Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #57 re: cracked wheat source quiet Grain Mill? Recipe to proof yeast? SourDough Starter Question Hitachi stuck shaft/paddle on Zoji Re: SF sourdough Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #57 Re: Bread machines and such Zoji; Powdered Milk Zoj price is coming down ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ClayCooker@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 11:20:45 -0500 Subject: Cracked wheat - where? In V6#57 - Sherry asked for a phone number for a catalog that sells Cracked wheat? King Arthur Flour Calalog has it listed as #3412. A 2# sack is $2.85 plus shipping. The Catalog address is: The King Arthur Flour Baker's Catalogue, P.O. Box 876, Norwich, Vermont 05055-0876. It's easier to just call their toll free number and order one. That number is: 1-800-343-3002. - --Bev in Mn ------------------------------ From: CHEFLZ@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 10:36:50 -0500 Subject: STORING BREAD & ADDING LIQUOR I have read of several methods of storing freshly baked bread,& I've had good luck in keeping it in a plastic bag(with air holes in it!) for about 1 1/2 weeks, except for a VERY, VERY moist loaf which I bagged & sealed(not wanting it to mold), & then refrigerated,BUT are there any better, or other ways? Also, what about putting a small amount of liquor in dough as a flavorer, would that hurt the yeast? THANKS, Larry Ziegler ------------------------------ From: ClayCooker@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 11:21:06 -0500 Subject: sourdough info re: V6#57 Michael Greenberg asked about his sourdough starter? There is a really good Sourdough book our called: WORLDWIDE SOURDOUGHS FROM YOUR BREAD MACHINE written by Donna German (who has written many bread machine books) and Dr. Ed Wood who is a retired Physician scientist and authority on sourdough breads. Might be worth it to pick up this book. It is published in San Leandro, CA by Bristol Publishing Enterprises, Inc. and is a "NiTTY GRITTY" Cookbook. Dr. Wood uses NO store yeast in his breads. Donna German does! It's interesting reading too! Hope this might help? Bev in Mn. ------------------------------ From: ClayCooker@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 11:20:50 -0500 Subject: Sun-Dried Tomato Herb Bread RE: V6 #57 Penchard asked for a Whole Wheat Bread with Sun dried Tomatoes: This recipe is from "The Bread Machine Cookbook by Melissa Clark and is called: SUN-DRIED TOMATO HERB BREAD 1# Size and (1-1/2# size) 1 C. (1-1/3 C) WATER 2 T. (3T.) OLIVE OIL 1/4 C. (1/3 C.) fresh BASIL LEAVES 2 T. (3T) fresh PARSLEY LEAVES 1 (1-1/2) cloves GARLIC, mashed 2 tsp. (2-1/2 tsp.) SUGAR 1 tsp. (1-1/2 tsp.) SALT 3/4 tsp. (1 tsp) PEPPER 1 C. (1-1/2 C.) Whole Wheat FLOUR 2 C. (2-1/2 C.) Bread FLOUR 1-1/2 tsp. (2-1/2 tsp.) YEAST 1/2 C. (2/3 C) oil-packed sun-dried TOMATOES, chopped Bake according to manuf. instruct. Add sun-dried tomatoes 5 min before the final kneading is finished...Bev in Mn ------------------------------ From: AFV63@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 09:08:44 -0500 Subject: Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #57 In a message dated 96-01-14 08:40:13 EST, you write: >Now my two questions, >How to proof yeast >my bread is not rising always, I want to test my yeast, but do not remember >how to do it. Add the yeast to warm water and a little sugar and keep in a warm area. If the yeast is "alive" you should get a lot of foam in about an hour. If you're using fresh yeast (instead of dried or instant) make sure that you aren't using yeast that is brown and dried out or wet and slimy looking. When fresh yeast is exposed to oxygen, it causes the yeast to autolyze and enzymes and other stuff to leak out of the ruptured yeast cells. The autolyzed yeast will make your dough too soft and since autolyzed yeast is dead, it can't help the bread rise. ------------------------------ From: ClayCooker@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 11:20:58 -0500 Subject: Three Olive Breads RE: V6 #57 Penchard asked for a Whole Wheat Bread with Olives: This recipe is from "The Bread Machine Cookbook by Melissa Clark and is called: PROSCIUTTO OLIVE TOMATO BREAD 1# and (1-1/2# size) 1 C. (1-1/3 C.) WATER 2 T. (3T.) Vegetable OIL 1/3 C. (1/2 C.) Ripe TOMATO, chopped 1/3 C. (1/2 C.) Pitted Alfonse, or other wine-cured olives. 1/3 C. (1/3 C.) Prosciutto, shredded 2 tsp. (1T.) SUGAR 1/2 tsp. (2/3 tsp.) SAGE 1 tsp. (1-1/2 tsp.) SALT 1/3 C. (1/2 C.) Rye FLOUR 1-1/2 C. (1-2/3 C.) Whole-Wheat FLOUR 1-1/2 C. (2 C.) Bread FLOUR 1-1/2 tsp. (2-1/2 tsp.) YEAST Bake according to manuf. instructions. OLIVE COUNTRY BREAD 1# and (1-1/2# size) 1 C. (1-1/3 C.) WATER 2 T. (3 T.) Fresh LARD, or OLIVE OIL 2 tsp. (1 T.) SUGAR 1 tsp. (1-1/2 tsp.) SALT 1 T. (1-1/2 T) dried ROSEMARY, or 3T, (1/4 C.) fresh ROSEMARY 1-1/2 C. (2 C.) Whole-wheat FLOUR 1-1/2 C. (2 C.) Bread FLOUR 1-1/2 tsp. (2-1/2 tsp.) YEAST 2/3 C. (3/4 C.) pitted Moroccan OLIVES, or other good-quality black olives. Bake accord. to Manuf. Instruct. Add OLIVES five minutes before the final kneading is finished. CAPER OLIVE BREAD 1# and (1-1/2# size) 1 C. (1-1/3 C.) WATER 2 T. (3 T.) OLIVE OIL 1/3 C. (1/2 C.) fresh PARSLEY 2 tsp. (1 T.) SUGAR 1 tsp. (1-1/2 tsp.) SALT 1-1/2 C. (2 C.) Whole-wheat FLOUR 1-1/2 C. (2 C.) Bread FLOUR 1-1/2 tsp. (2-1/2 tsp) YEAST 1/3 C. (1/2 C.) CAPERS 1/3 C. (1/2 C.) pitted GREEN OLIVES Bake Accord to Manuf. Instruct. Add OLIVES and CAPERS five minutes before the final kneading is finished. Hope one of these might fit the bill? Bev in Mn ------------------------------ From: CHEFLZ@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 13:34:26 -0500 Subject: THANKS A LOT! I REALLY APPRECIATE THIS NEWSLETTER!!, DR.LARRY ZIEGLER ------------------------------ From: Blanche007@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 20:03:51 -0500 Subject: Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #57 Re cracked wheat: call the King Arthur Flour Bakers Catalogue: 800 827-6836. Tell 'em Lora sent you. ------------------------------ From: Blanche007@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 19:55:54 -0500 Subject: Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #57 To Terry Wilde re low gluten recipes and bread machines - call Beth Hillson at the Gluten Free Pantry 203 633 3826 - she'll help you. ------------------------------ From: "J. R. Link" Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 19:34:26 PST Subject: Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #57 Could some one tell me what is the difference between cut oats and rolled oats? - --------------- Jackie Link Fremont,Ca. - --------------- ------------------------------ From: Blanche007@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 20:06:53 -0500 Subject: Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #57 To Onnie about yeast - buy yeast in bulk. Forget those envelopes. They are expensive and a waste. Go to Costco or Sam's or = and look for Red Star Yeast in bulk. ------------------------------ From: an127@rgfn.epcc.Edu (Marie L. McMahel) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 96 18:26:11 MST Subject: Re: Bread bakers digest list... I would like you to ask the list to email me with the pros and cons of the lower priced bread machines, as my funds are very limited. Thanks again! Marie ------------------------------ From: yyj00138@cyberstore.ca (Steve Newell) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 13:13:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cheese Danish Hi I was wondering if there was anyone with a cheese danish recipe, I have a Hitachi Bread Machine. None of the cookbooks I have has this recipe. Thanks. I'm here because I'm not all there! ------------------------------ From: dorothy talbott Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 14:42:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: MasterCook Okay, I give up...will someone PLEASE tell me what Master Cook and Master Cook II are please?? I kept waiting to ask figuring that sooner or later I would understand it; well I don't! I think it's something I want. The recipes sound delicious! Info, please. Kay Talbott ktalbott@nccu.edu South Brunswick Middle School Southport, NC 28461 ------------------------------ From: Blanche007@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 21:05:14 -0500 Subject: Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #57 To Debby re sweet yeast breads. You live in MA and can get King Arthur flour (regular, white, unbleached). Use it! Also add a couple of talbespoons of non-fat dry milk - this will give you a tender crust and crumb. For sweet doughs I like the Special for sweet breads yeast that you can get thru the King Arthur Catalogue 800 827-6836. Lora Brody ------------------------------ From: scarel@richmond.infi.net (Sherrie Carel) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 16:18:21 -0500 Subject: stuck bread pan Here's hoping that someone can help. My bread machine pan is stuck. I have tried all the ways I know to unstick it. My machine is a Zo and I have had it for over 3 years. It's just been recently that I have had trouble. Also, does anyone have Franzel's email address? He is the one who sold me the pan. Maybe he could help. Thank you. Sherrie Carel ------------------------------ From: "Barbara S. Wand" Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 22:38:32 -0500 Subject: Question re American Harvest Machine I have an American Harvest machine (with two pans that allows to you bake two loaves at a time), and I really like it. The one problem that I have is that many times, the loaves come out with caked-on flour on the bottom corners of the loaves. Have any of you experienced this with your bread machines? What does one do to correct it? Many thanks! ------------------------------ From: "J. R. Link" Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 19:34:37 PST Subject: Re: Gluten Health food store had it at $2.50 per lb. Seems high. I got a little to try with my whole wheat flour worked well. Use a table spoon I think it said per cup of flour but I just used 2 tbl for 6 cups of four and it was fine. Flour that says Best for Bread really gives me a lighter loaf than regular flour.But I have used both with out gluten. - --------------- Jackie Link Fremont,Ca. - --------------- ------------------------------ From: TrinaMaria@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 14:30:38 -0500 Subject: all purpose flour bread Here is a recipe for Bonnie, so she and any others can use their all purpose flour: BASIC BREAD 2tsp yeast; 3C regular all purpose flour; 3tsp gluten; 2tsp salt; 3tbsp sugar; 3tbsp dry milk; 2tbsp butter; 1C water --> Toss yeast in bread machine first; cover w/ flour and add other dry ingredients; take butter from fridge, crumple and add; use room temperature water. ------------------------------ From: BrendaB992@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 00:51:41 -0500 Subject: Re: Apple Cider Cinnamon Bread recipe Reggie: You are right - that recipe is out of this world. I made it yesterday and my husband and I enjoyed it for "dessert" last night, for breakfast this am, and also "dessert": this evening. Thanks! Brenda (who, by the way, has a little R2D2 Welbilt that is so sturdy and refuses to do, despite falling off my kitchen island recently - nothing even broke! I've had it for 5 plus years and am dying for a new one!) ------------------------------ From: ClayCooker@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 11:21:03 -0500 Subject: factory programmed machines Re: V6 #57 The only factory programmed bread machine I know of is the Zojirushi. I have the Zojirushi S-15. The best PRICE and SERVICE is from a very nice fellow in Florida by the name of Irwin Franzel. You can contact him easily via e-mail. Just write to: CPXD31A@Prodigy.com and he will be more than happy to send you all the information you could ask for! I think he also has an 800# but I don't have that handy. Hope this is the info you are looking for. Bev in Mn ------------------------------ From: Blanche007@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 20:06:13 -0500 Subject: Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #57 To Connie re flour, salt and sugar: Connie, by all means use your regular flour - make sure it has at least 12 grams of protein per cup - it will be fine for white bread. You can make bread withour sugar or other sweeteners, however bread made without salt lacks both flavor and well developed texture. Salt makes the yeast work longer and slower over the course of the dough making -this makes for good texture and flavor. No salt will make the dough rise too fast (sometimes too high). ------------------------------ From: Gerard_Mcmahon@ftdetrck-ccmail.army.mil Date: Wed, 17 Jan 96 10:44:42 EST Subject: re: cracked wheat source Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 10:25:00 -0500 Subject: SourDough Starter Question Hi, I'm trying to make the Red Grape Sour Dough starter that is in Julia Child's Cooking with Master Cooks. The first stage is allowing the flour/water/grapes to sit for 6 days, stirring daily. I did that. Yesterday, I transfered the mixture to a clean container, and added 1 cup flour and 1 cup water. The mixture was supposed to bubble up in 3 to 4 hours. Well, I only saw about 4 bubbles after 5 hours. I covered and placed in refrigerator as per directions. I have two more feedings to go before the starter is ready for use. But I'm not sure everything is working right.... The starter does smell sour - like vinegar. Is that how the starter should smell? Any other hints on things to look for to know if the starter is ok? Thanks for any advice! Terry Capps capps@bnr.ca Raleigh, NC ------------------------------ From: Dave Jerzycki Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 07:54:23 -0700 Subject: Hitachi I've followed the negative comments over the last few months regarding the Hitachi bread machine. I've had mine (a 201B), for about 3 or 4 years now and couldn't be happier with it. Never had an electrical problem, a mechanical problem, or a bread diaster. My loafs come out fine, I use the regular cycle, the make dough cycle, when I want to finish the dough by hand or make pizza dough, and I can even make whole wheat bread with it. I always measure by weight my ingredients, not by volume, and make sure the cold ingredients, (like butter or eggs or yeast) are as close to room temp as possible. I always use warm water, about 100 - 110 degrees, (it will cool a little in the pan before the yeast get mixed in.) I'm sure there are other people out there that have a Hitachi that are as pleased with it as I am. Dave Jerzycki daveje@hpgrla ------------------------------ From: bzwax@tiac.net (Rich & Debbie) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 19:08:38 -0500 Subject: stuck shaft/paddle on Zoji Hello, all: Sometimes I find that the shaft that on which the mixing paddle sits for my Zoji gets frozen. The darn thing just won't turn in either direction and I don't usually find that this has happened until the poor machine is straining to turn the shaft. NOT a pleasant discovery, because it means I either have to get it going some way or make the dough by hand (horrors!). In the past, all I have been able to do is make the shaft move using force (when I can: I often have to wait for our resident carpenter who has stronger hands than mine to get home!). This happens in about 1 in 15 loaves....otherwise, it's just fine! My question is: what can I do to prevent this? is this an indication that something is wrong with my mixing bucket? what can I do when I don't seem to have enough strength to move it? Thanks, Debbie Bier Concord, MA ------------------------------ From: "J. R. Link" Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 19:34:29 PST Subject: Re: SF sourdough No we in the SF bay area just can't get the exact sourdough flavor. That is why the SF sourdough company produces and sells so well. What is of interest is that Colombo, Toscano, Parisian and Bodean are all the SF Sourdough company and using the same sour dough starter. No they won't give me a sample. I use three different sour dough starters each gives a slightly different flavor but I still buy Sf sourdough that is made by SF sourdough companies. Also the flavor even varies with in this company. The hand kneaded or smaller batch stuff like Boudean tastes better. More tart I think. They have wonderful very hot ovens. Home ovens don't get that hot. So when in San Francisco or the bay area or at the airports pick up a loaf. I figure I won't pass up a good product. Mine is good just different. One time I heard that they flew the starter in from France but that might have just been some tall tale. - --------------- Jackie Link Fremont,Ca. - --------------- ------------------------------ From: Marta Martin Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 04:19:15 -0500 Subject: Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #57 Regarding Michael Greenberg's question on Sourdough Starter. He wrote that no matter how long he leaves the starter out to proof, he cannot develop the strong sourdough flavor he seeks. I am no expert, but it has been my experience that it is not so much how long the starter is left out to proof, but how often it is used and fed that determines the level of sour taste. The more you use your starter and replenish it, the better the flavor gets. If you use the starter every 4 to 7 days, or at least take out a cup of the starter and then replenish if you are not going to bake bread, this ought to get you on your way. Hope this helps. Marta Martin marta@citynet.net ============================================================================ Marta Martin-(marta@citynet.net) Inside me there is a thin woman dying to get out. I ate her for lunch. Hallmark Cards I can barf like a dog. Toren, 3 years old Shake your hips and hope for the best. Camille, age 9 ============================================================================= ------------------------------ From: "J. R. Link" Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 19:34:32 PST Subject: Re: Bread machines and such I have a Panasonic bread maker. Love it but too small. My daughter has Hitachi and it makes a larger loaf of bread comes out well. But this Christmas I got a new Kitchenaide Mixer. The 350 watts with bread hook. This is the best as You can make all sorts of bread. The panasonic and Hitachi hard to judge the moisture for making sour dough. Panasonic minces up raisin etc so small so you have to add them part way through the cycle a pain. The kitchen aide mixer is a replacement for one I had since 1957 which is still working but no bread hook so I gave it to my son. I think if you want more than one loaf and you like to bake go the Kitchenaide route. If you want only a loaf now and then and want it very simple, measuring is the only thing that is fussy, buy a bread maker. My other son has Betty Crocker hot air blowing type my son likes very well. He is single and one loaf is fine for him. Barbara German puts out great books for bread makers and also has articles in the front of her oblong cookbooks rating the machines. - --------------- Jackie Link Fremont,Ca. - --------------- ------------------------------ From: KCHolz@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 01:06:53 -0500 Subject: Zoji; Powdered Milk Hi, I started subscribing to this list about 4 months ago before I started baking bread to learn about this world and figure out what machine to tell Santa about. After reading about your problems with various machines I requested a Zoji, one that many of you seemed happy with. Good news: Santa came through and we've baked over 20 successful loaves already! All loaves have been good, and by adjusting a bit of yeast and a bit of water, we've gotten some nearly perfect. The only problem we had was that the belt came off the drive wheel (for the kneading blade) since the little set screw that holds it together came loose. It was an easy fix but did involve taking off the bottom of the machine. (You'll know this when it happens since instead of the "thump, thump" of the kneading cycle, you'll get a very loud chattering.) One cookbook we've really enjoyed has been "Electric Bread". It's easy to read, relatively simple, and has some tantalizing combinations. Our favorite so far is Chocolate Cherry Bread. The only problem that I have with the cookbook is that it often calls for a small amount of powdered milk (1-2 Tbs.). I try to stay vegan whenever possible, so I'd love to find a substitute. I've successfully replaced any eggs with "Egg Replacer" but I'm not sure what to use for the milk. Does anyone know what the function of the powdered milk is? Can I replace it with another "milk" like rice milk? If so, do I need to reduce the other liquids? Thanks in advance for the help. Happy Baking! Katherina KCHolz@aol.com ------------------------------ From: ellen@brakes.elekta.com Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 12:37:49 -0400 Subject: Zoj price is coming down I just spoke with Irwin at the Delta Rehab Center. (This is the lowcost, mail-order distributor of the S-15A Zojirushi.) He told me that effective Feb. 1, Zo was reducing the price of the machine by $10. The Delta Rehab will make that retroative to January 1, so that means the machine, including shipping, is now only $250! My machine just arrived and I am in the process of baking my first loaf--a honey whole wheat from the Donna German's Bread baking IV book. What's unique about this recipe is that it contains a fair amount of honey and very, very little salt. Here it is, and if it comes out anything less than spectacular, I'll let you know. * Exported from MasterCook Mac * HONEY WHEAT BREAD Recipe By : The Bread Machine Cookbook IV,Donna Rathmell German,p. 23 Serving Size : 1 Preparation Time :0:00 Categories : Bread Machine Breads Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method - -------- ------------ -------------------------------- For Medium size loaf: 1 1/8 cups water -- or milk 1/3 cup honey 1/3 teaspoon salt 1 1/2 tablespoons vital gluten -- optional (up to 3 tblsp) 3 cups whole wheat flour 2 teaspoons active dry yeast (or 1 1/2 tsp if using SAF instant yeast) Use regular/whole wheat cycle and medium crust setting. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- Ellen ellen@brakes.elekta.com ------------------------------ End of bread-bakers-digest V6 #58 ********************************* bread-bakers-digest Saturday, 20 January 1996 Volume 06 : Number 059 Today's Subjects: Barley and Oat Bread Fed up with my bread machine! RE: Basics Re: Basic Questions Hazelnut Bread And Biscotti bread-bakers digest V6 #57 Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #57 bread digest answers Re: Bread bakers digest list... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Reggie Dwork Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 03:15:56 -0800 Subject: Barley and Oat Bread Here is a really tasty loaf of bread that I made today. * Exported from MasterCook II * Barley And Oat Bread Recipe By : The Best Bread Machine Cookbook Ever, Madge Rosenberg Serving Size : 10 Preparation Time :0:00 Categories : Bread Machine Grains Low Fat Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method - -------- ------------ -------------------------------- 1 1/2 Lb Loaf: -- (1 lb loaf): 2 1/4 Tsp Active Dry Yeast -- (1 1/2 t) 2 1/2 C Bread Flour -- (1 2/3 C) 3/4 C Barley Flour -- (1/2 C) 1/3 C Rolled Oats -- (1/4 C) 3 Tbsp Wheat Germ -- (2 T), I omitted 3 Tbsp Nonfat Dry Milk Powder -- (2 T) 3 Tbsp Orange Zest -- grated, (2 T) 3 Tbsp Sesame Seeds -- optional, (2 T) 1 1/2 Tsp Salt -- (1 t) 3 Tbsp Honey -- (2 T) 1 1/2 Tsp Wonderslim -- *NOTE, (1/2 T) 1 1/3 C Water -- (3/4 C + 2 T) *NOTE: The original recipe used 1 1/2 T vegetable oil (1 T). A moist and chewy loaf like this one makes good peanut butter, tuna, or fresh ham sandwiches and excellent toast. It goes well with vegetable and meat soups, especially Scotch broth. Add all ingredients in the order suggested by your bread machine manual and process on the basic bread cycle according to the manufacturer's directions. Eat warm - but not hot - or cool. Entered into MasterCook II and tested for you by Reggie Dwork - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hope you enjoy it. Reggie ------------------------------ From: DEHOLD@ccmail.monsanto.com Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 18:21:19 -0600 Subject: Fed up with my bread machine! Anybody want to buy a used Zojirushi? I about ready to throw this machine out the door onto the sidewalk! We received a Zoj for a wedding present about a year and a half ago. I suspect this may be an older model machine because it only has the four basic cycles - no crust adjustment or quick bread cycle. I have never seen my machine's model in any store or catalog where they sell this brand of bread machine. Anyway, the bread that I have made has *never* been what I would consider superior to even store bought loaf bread, hand-made bread or even other people's machine bread. The bread my machine produces comes out tasting all ready like it is three day's old - pretty dry and crumbly. In addition, for the past year or so, the loaves have only rarely risen satisfactorily. Most loaves are dense and heavy. When I first used the machine, I got loaves rising up to the lid (but still dry), but they are short and stumpy now. I have used different yeast (brands and freshness). I thought the answer was that I needed to bring everything to room temp but that yields no improvement. In addition, it seems that no matter what 'flavor' of bread that I make, they all have the same "taste". I've changed flours but they still all have the similar "background flavor". Is this normal? I stopped baking as frequently as I used to when I realized that I was trying to convince myself that this was good bread because, of course, it was fresh and hot, etc. but I finally admitted to myself "No, this is, in fact, not good bread." When I first tried some bread from a friend's machine, I was shocked at how moist, and flavorful it was - and it was just a basic wheat bread recipe. Remedies that I have tried include: increase water about a teaspoon or so (only little improvement), different recipes from different sources, extreme accuracy in measurement (not by weight, by volume only), bringing ingredients to room temp., new yeast, different yeast, various other tips that I have read about on this list. What else can I try to get out of my breadmachine blues? Thanks in advance. DeAnn Holden ------------------------------ From: "Michael E. Grabenstein" Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 21:28:29 -0500 Subject: RE: Basics #1: You can use all purpose flour. You can not use self raising... The "bread" flours just have more gluten and are usually a better milling than all purpose. But if you have a quality all purpose, it is probably just as good. #2: Gluten is sold at most large grocery stores (like you local Giant). Usualy one puts about a Tbs spoon full in a loaf of bread. It is used with whole wheat and all purpose flours that are too coarse or do not have enough gluten in them. What it does is set up the structure in the flour that makes it sticky and traps the air bubbles made by the yeast (which is how the bread raises). #3: Nope you can omit salt and sugar, as long as you understand what you are doing. Salt limits the growth of the yeast, so if you use less salt you need either less sugar, or less yeast, or both. Salts other importance is taste... Sugar can be substituted or omitted. Substitues would be orange juice concentrate (also adds water), applesause, jelly, fruit, etc... If you choose to omit the sugar, you will need more yeast and less salt... Note some recipes will not work if you make these changes, but most will, if you get the rest of the stuff figured out right. A loaf of bread is a delicate balance of the ingredients. #4: "Proof the yeast" is a term when using a sour dough starter. Get used to regular loaves, then start experimenting here. With sour dough you add some flour and water mixture that has fermented and to allow you to keep a portion of this for future use. You have to feed the "starter" water and flour and let it ferment (or proof) for some time (8-12 hours ussually). #5: you must be exact with certain things, somethings can be pinched. but 1) water, 2) flour, 3) yeast must be EXACT. A loaf is again a delicate balance of ingredients and your machine is a programmed to do things at certain times. If you bake by hand, you feel it and watch it and if it need more time you give it more, if it need more water you give it to it. the bread machine does nothing like this, at 20 minutes it stops kneading period, whether or not the dough is too dry, or too wet, or needs more kneading. Also becareful, a too dry dough can damage your machine. Later, Mike Michael.Grabenstein@gsfc.nasa.gov ------------------------------ From: Darrell_Greenwood@mindlink.net Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 14:56:21 -0800 Subject: Re: Basic Questions Bonnie Pollack writes; > #1. Why can't I use all purpose flour. I have some to get rid of two > large packages You can... and it may produce a nicer loaf of bread to your taste. I keep both all purpose and bread flour on hand... and sometimes mix the two dependent on the bread style I am making. > #2 What is gluten and where is it sold? And if I have to add it, in > what quantity? Gluten is the component of flour that traps, after being developed by kneading, the carbon dioxide gas produced by the yeast and causes the bread to rise. Gluten content of flour runs ~8-10% (cake and pastry), ~11-12% (all-purpose), ~13-14%(bread). You shouldn't have to add it normally with all-purpose or bread flour. > #3 Can bread be salt or sugar free or does the yeast need them to > rise? Sourdough bread is naturally sugar free as the yeast strain gets its nutrients from the flour only. Commercial yeast has been developed to be most effective with sugar as its food so omitting the sugar in an active yeast recipe will starve the yeast and your bread with not rise as much. It turns out that salt acts as a dough conditioner in addition to being a flavoring... so again your rises may not be as great if you omit it. > #4 What is "proof the yeast" Testing that is still alive. Generally by putting a dry active yeast in a sugar and water solution and seeing if bubbles are produced showing that it is still active. > #5 Why do measurements have to be so exact? I cook with "pinches" and > get crazy when asked to do something EXACTLY. Too many variables otherwise. A bread machine steps through its cycles regardless of the condition of the dough. If you are making bread by hand you can (and will) make adjustments for too dry or too wet, etc. Small variations cause big problems in the final bread if not corrected. > I have most of my trouble with the yeast packets. Some of the > recipes ask for a 1/4th more or less. I dump the entire packet and it > seems ok. Since yeast is a living organism, capable of multiplying, and does multiply in the dough, its variation is the least critical. Exam over? Great. :-) You may want to look at -- URL: I have pointers on this web page to various sourdough FAQ sources and information. Cheers, Darrell - -- Darrell Greenwood, Vancouver, BC darrell_greenwood@mindlink.net My web homepage... http://mindlink.net/darrell_greenwood/ ------------------------------ From: Reggie Dwork Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 03:15:56 -0800 Subject: Hazelnut Bread And Biscotti Well, I made this today and it smells wonderful as it is cooking. We were were going to make it into biscotti *but* we couldn't wait...so we just cut into it and ate it. Maybe the next loaf will be become biscotti or again... maybe not!! * Exported from MasterCook II * Hazelnut Bread And Biscotti Recipe By : The Best Bread Machine Cookbook Ever, Madge Rosenberg Serving Size : 16 Preparation Time :0:00 Categories : Bread Machine Cookies Italian Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method - -------- ------------ -------------------------------- 1 1/2 Lb Loaf: -- (1 lb loaf): 1 1/2 Tsp Active Dry Yeast -- (1 t) 2 1/4 C Bread Flour -- (1 1/2 C) 3/4 C Whole-Wheat Flour -- (1/2 C) 2 Tbsp Wheat Germ -- I omitted, (2 T) 3 Tbsp Nonfat Dry Milk Powder -- (2 T) 1/4 C Sugar -- PLUS 2 Tbsp Sugar -- (1/4 C) 3 tbsp Anise Seed -- or fennel seed, -- (2 T) 1 1/2 tbsp Wonderslim -- *NOTE, (2 T) 1 C Water -- PLUS 2 tbsp Water -- (3/4 C) 3/4 C Hazelnuts -- chopped, (1/2 C) *NOTE: The original recipe used 3 T vegetable oil (2 T). Biscotti are twice-baked cookies - a favorite Italian dessert. They are served with cappuccino, red wine or hot chocolate, and they keep so well that you can always have a supply on hand. Add all ingredients except the hazelnuts in the order suggested by your bread machine manual and process on the basic bread cycle according to the manufacturer's directions. At the beeper (or at the end of the first kneading in the Panasonic or National), add the hazelnuts. Let cool or eat warm. To make biscotti, preheat your oven to 350 deg F. Slice cooled bread 1/2" thick. Cut slices into fingers 1" wide. Place on baking sheet and toast for 15 - 20 min. The fresher the bread, the longer it needs to toast. Let cool and store in airtight containers or freeze. I didn't get to make this into biscotti as it smelled so good we went ahead and ate it!! This is an *excellent* bread. Probably very good as biscotti also...maybe next time. Entered into MasterCook II and tested for you by Reggie Dwork - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - NOTES : Cal 152.9 Fat 4.1g Carbs 25.3g Dietary Fiber 1.9g Protein 4.6g Sodium 6mg CFF 23.6% ------------------------------ From: smile@ridgecrest.ca.us (Mary Ash) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 13:36:05 -0800 Subject: bread-bakers digest V6 #57 The following bread baking tips are for Debbie Bier in Concord, MA and Bonnie Pollack. First for Debbie: I have had good luck using straight bread flour for all my sweet dough type recipes. You can cheat and use high gluten flour with all purpose flour. Check the high gluten flour package directions for the amount to use. Using a good hard flour will produce nice tender coffee cakes, etc. Remember to keep the dough soft, almost sticky but you should be able to knead it to a smooth dough, and you'll always have good sweet dough. For Bonnie: 1) You can use all purpose flour if you add high gluten flour to the bread dough. Substitute a portion of the high gluten flour for the all purpose flour. Check the high gluten flour package for directions. 2) Gluten flour is sold at health food stores (where I buy mine) or you could probably order it from King Arthur's Flour catalog. 3) You need sugar in order to feed the yeast. Yeast is a living creature that needs to be fed. Feed it sugar to help with growth. No sugar, no growth. As to salt, it helps improve the flavor of the bread product but bread can be made without it. Check the rising times and they'll usually have to be cut in half. Be sure when using the bread maker to follow the manufacturer's directions on using yeast. For my bread machine I always place the salt separately from the yeast when adding ingredients. This is very important when allowing the ingredients to sit awhile. The salt will kill the yeast if placed too close together. 4) Proofing the yeast is checking it to make sure the critters are still alive. This usually translates to placing the yeast in the appropriate temperature of water with a little sugar and the yeast. If the yeast, water, sugar mixture begins to bubble and smelly yeasty the yeast is alive and will work in your recipe. If not, try another batch of yeast. Today most modern recipes do not require proofing the yeast, but if in doubt of the viability of the yeast, test a batch of yeast by doing the above method. Most recipes today, including breadmaker recipes, just have the bread baker mix dry ingredients together and then add liquid ingredients. 5) Bread baking is never exact in most phases of baking except when it comes to salt, sugar, yeast and temperature. Too much salt and temperature will kill the yeast. Too much yeast will leave the bread tasting yeasty and will rise too much and collapse after baking. Adding too much sugar won't hurt too much but it will slow the rising times. Adding flour and liquids are a little less critical since they are dependent on the flour dryness and type. In the end, all kneaded yeast doughs should end up being soft, satiny and smooth after kneading. Happy baking! Mary Ash ------------------------------ From: Blanche007@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 21:18:46 -0500 Subject: Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #57 To Sheila: For Perfect Loaves Every Time * USE GOOD QUALITY HARD WHEAT FLOUR THAT HAS AT LEAST 12 GRAMS OF PROTEIN PER CUP. (I like King Arthur) * USE FRESH, QUICK DISSOLVING ACTIVE YEAST SUCH AS RED STAR. * OPEN THE MACHINE AND CHECK THE DOUGH DURING THE FIRST 5 - 10 MINUTES OF THE FIRST KNEADING CYCLE !!! Even if your manual says not to do it. Flour acts as a sponge absorbing moisture on wet days and becoming dehydrated during dry weather. You'll have to adjust for fluctuating humidity and barometric pressure by adding small amounts of flour or liquid to the dough. So, you've never made bread before. How do you know how much to add? If the dough looks sticky and wet, is sticking to the bottom and sides of the pan, then sprinkle in flour, a tablespoon at a time (you may need up to an extra 1/2 cup) while the machine is kneading, until you have a smooth, firm ball of dough. If the mixture is dry and corrugated looking or the dough won't hold together then sprinkle in additional liquid, a little at a time, until the dough is smooth and pliable and forms a cohesive ball. If you've wandered away from your machine only to return to find a wet messy glob or a dry desert thumping around in the machine, press STOP (you can do this at any time - except if the machine has gone into the bake cycle), add a small amount of flour or liquid and press START. Stick around and make additional adjustments, if necessary, until the dough looks right. You've never baked before - how can you tell if the dough looks right? Go to the stop. Buy frozen dough, let it defrost according to the package directions. Place it on a lightly floured surface and play with it until you are familiar with the consistency. This is what you're aiming for in the bread machine. I have found that when you are either making dough, or placing the ingredients in the machine to make bread at that time, you can add either the liquids first or the dry ingredients first. The major exception to this is the old DAK (no longer made) where the yeast must be placed in the bread pan first in a position farthest away from the kneading blade. When programming ahead make sure to place any dried fruits away from contact with wet ingredients as they will absorb those liquids and throw off the recipe. EXTRAS Extra kneads and extra rise times all contribute to the depth of flavor, character of the crumb and general personality of a loaf of bread. One of the reasons I dislike rapid rise yeast and rapid cycles on the bread machines is that the dough really requires the entire life span of the yeast to become the amazing miracle that is bread. If you are partial to whole grain breads and are winding up with lower loaves than you wish, then try a double knead cycle: place the ingredients in the machine and program for DOUGH or MANUAL. At the end of the final knead reprogram the machine for BREAD (of Whole Wheat) and press start. You've given the dough an extra work-out to develop the gluten - that will result in a higher loaf. For an even higher loaf you can (if your machine permits) program for a longer rise time, or simply remove the dough from the pan after the final rise cycle (but before baking) transfer it to a bread pan and allow it to raise in a warm place until doubled in bulk. Then bake it in the oven. Sweet doughs with lots of butter and eggs, also respond well to a second long rise in a cool place. I remove my brioche from the machine after the DOUGH cycle is complete. I place it in a large freezer strength zip lock bag and refrigerate it overnight. Then I place it back in the machine (my Zojirushi has flexible programming), program for 2nd rise and bake. If you can't program your machine this way you can place the dough in a bread pan after you remove it from the machine, give it a long, refrigerated rise, and then bake it in the oven. Even non-wheat and non-sweet doughs can benefit from this extra rise. Hope this helps...Lora Brody ------------------------------ From: LoisCon@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 16:19:50 -0500 Subject: bread digest answers Sherry asked where to buy cracked wheat. Here are some possible sources: Bob's Red Mill 1-800-553-2258. Jaffe Brothers 1-619-749-1133 Walnut Acres 1-800-433-3998 You can also substitute bulger..which is cracked wheat that has been parboiled. It will absorb your liquids faster. You can soften it by soaking. Contact me by E-mail for more instructions which we have in our book, The Bread Machine Magic Book of Helpful Hints. Debbie asked what kind of flour to use for a yeast-raised coffee cake. I would advise all-purpose flour. (assuming this is not being done in a bread machine) Therese asked about programmable bread machines for low or gluten-free breads. The only true programmable bread machine is the Zojirushi. It also has a pin on the side which makes for superior kneading which is helpful with these recipes. The West Bend Bakers Choice has a cycle in which you can extend the rising time but not the kneading time. A good book for these recipes is: Easy Bread Making For Special Diets by Nicolette Dumke. This is available through King Arthur Flour E-mail me for more sources at LoisCon@AOL.com Michael Greeenberg asked about getting his sourdough more "sour". Some suggestions. 1. Use non-fat or low-fat milk in your starter. 2.Another suggestion is to take out the starter the night before. 3.What we do with our sourdough recipe in Bread Machine Magic is to start it the night before. We take half the flour called for in our recipe, add to it the starter at room temperature, and the water. Mix well,cover, and let sit in a warm place for 12-24 hours till sour and bubbly. Hope this helps. Lois Jenka asked how to make the hole left in the bread from the bread machine smaller. After the last punchdown and before the last rising (this varies with machines),pull the dough out, remove the paddle, and put the dough back into the bread pan. This will solve the problem. Zoji owners can now buy a Finish pan from Irwin Franzel. This pan will do a bread with no holes. You can cut the last size in quarters to minimize the holes. We have found different machines make different size holes! Bonnie asked why she can't use all purpose flour with the bread machine. You can Bonnie, but you will have to add gluten, 1 1/2 teaspoons per cup of flour. Bread flour has a higher gluten percentage. Your bread will not rise as high with all-purpose flour. Gluten is a protein. You can find it at health food stores,or at places like King Arthur, in a box, and in bulk. It is a key element in yeast breads. Use as directed on the box. If bought in bulk, use up to 1 tablespoon per cup of flour. It is usually used in whole grain breads and not in white breads. Don't confuse vital wheat gluten with gluten flour. Bonnie also asked if she could make a bread without salt or sugar. No Bonnie you need a minimal amount of salt. Sugar provides food for the yeast but you can use diastatic malt powder as a substitute. Bonnie asked what proofing yeast means. It is a test to see if the yeast is active, or good. I don't like measuring either, but baking is precise Bonnie, and becsuse the bread machine takes over and has timed cycles, measurements do have to be precise. A bit more yeast won't hurt as you found out...but often a tablespoon or two of liquid can change the whole recipe. Sheila asked for a french bread recipe that would work. We like to make our french bread as a dough and finish it up in the oven. We have heard that Donna German's bread machine book has a good french bread in it. Contact me by Email and I may be able to find it by then. Diane asked about her rolls that came out too hard. Firstly, you never gave us the recipe, but you could need more fat in it. To rise them, try a warm oven (no higher than 200x) for one minute. Then turn off the oven. You also may be baking the rolls at too high a temperature. May I offer some rolls from one of our books Bread Machine Magic. Email me for some more recipes. BUTTERHORN ROLLS 1 1/2 POUND 1 POUND IN () 3/4 cup milk for Welbilt/ (1/2) (add 1 DAK add 2 more tablespoons) tablespoon for Welbilt 1 egg (1) 3 cups all purpose flour (2) 1/3 cup oil (1/2) 1/3 cup sugar (1/4) 1 1/2 to 2 teaspoons Red Star (1 1/2) active dry yeast 1 1/2 tablespoons melted butter (1) or margarine Place all ingredients except melted butter in bread pan, select Dough Setting and press Start. When dough has risen long enough, the machine will beep. Turn off bread machine, remove bread pan, and turn out dough onto a floured countertop or cutting board. Shape dough into a log. For 1 1/2 POUND With a sharp knife, divide dough into 3 pieces, roll each piece into a ball. FOR 1 POUND With a sharp knife, divide dough into 2 pieces;roll each piece into a ball. With a rolling pin, roll each ball, one at a time, into a 9 inch circle. With a sharp knife or a pizza cutter, divide each circle into 8 wedges, as if cutting a pizza. Staring at the wide end roll up each wedge toward the point. Place rolls on an ungreased baking sheet, point side underneath. Cover and let rise in a warm oven 30 to 45 minutes until doubled. (Hint: to warm oven slightly,turn oven on Warm setting for 1 minute then turn it off,) and place covered rolls in oven to rise (Remove sheet from oven to preheat.) Preheat oven to 375 degrees. Brush rolls lightly with melted butter. Bake for 12 to 15 minutes until golden. Remove from oven and serve warm 1 1/2 pound dough yields 24 rolls 1 pound dough yields 16 rolls. >From Bread Machine Magic by Linda Rehberg and Lois Conway, St.Martin's Press. Make these once and they will become favorites. The dough is so easy to handle. They are rich and tender. If you need more information please contact me at LoisCon@AOL.com Thanks you, Lois Conway, co-author with Linda Rehberg of Bread Machine Magic and The Bread Machine Magic Book of Helpful Hints ------------------------------ From: an127@rgfn.epcc.Edu (Marie L. McMahel) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 96 18:26:11 MST Subject: Re: Bread bakers digest list... I would like to ask the list to email me with the pros and cons of the lower priced bread machines, as my funds are very limited. Thanks again! Marie ------------------------------ End of bread-bakers-digest V6 #59 ********************************* bread-bakers-digest Friday, 26 January 1996 Volume 06 : Number 060 Today's Subjects: mail source Zo $250? RE: stuck shaft/paddle... whole wheat bread recipes Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #58 Converting machine receipe converting to 2 lb. loaves Re: REAL [none] Re: quiet Grain Mill? Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #59 Question about Pizza Dough Recipes w/ spelt Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #59 bread flour companies Herbs & Flavor (or Lack Thereof) [none] Bialys -- What's the Secret? Red-grape sourdough starter salt and powdered milk ??sources for bulk rapid-rise yeast RE: bread-bakers-digest V6 #57 RE: Fed up w/my bread machine Breads too sweet ??yeast RE: stuck shaft/paddle... bread digest response used Zojirushi Re: bbd #59 - Zoji problem Soft Pumpernickle bread DeAnn's breadmachine blues Storing flour/freezing dough ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Fox Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 15:17:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: mail source Zo $250? Please let me know where I can order the Zo for $250 as mentioned in the latest digest! Thanks, Angie ------------------------------ From: bzwax@tiac.net (Rich & Debbie) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 09:00:54 -0500 Subject: RE: stuck shaft/paddle... Hi, MIchael: Thanks for the info. That all makes sense..I will call and order a new pan (it's not under warantee anymore). Thanks so much, Debbie Bier ------------------------------ From: Matt Goike Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 21:41:47 -0800 Subject: whole wheat bread recipes hello fellow alchemists: i'm interested in using ONLY whole-grain flours in my breads. i'm also interested in baking bread that is not as heavy as that which i have been baking. any suggestions/tips, other than adding gluten flour? thanks. matthew ------------------------------ From: Blanche007@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 11:01:15 -0500 Subject: Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #58 I am looking for a few home bread bakers who would be willing to try a product I am developing to make sour dough bread. Please e mail me with your snail mail address if you would be willing to make a loaf (machine or manual) and e mail me feedback. Blanche007 ------------------------------ From: Tom Thalmann Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 21:41:49 -0800 Subject: Converting machine receipe Since I've belonged to this group I see numerious recipes for bread machines. I don't have a bread machine. Instead I have a Kitchen Aid mixer. What must be done to convert a machine receipe to an old fashion kneed the bread receipe? Thanks ------------------------------ From: Ellen Stier Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 12:58:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: converting to 2 lb. loaves Is there an easy conversion to convert 1.5 pound recipes to 2 pound recipes? I enjoy this feature of my new machine, but find I'm mostly making 1.5 pound loaves because those are the recipes I love most from my old machine. Thanks, Ellen ------------------------------ From: ClayCooker@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 23:42:33 -0500 Subject: Re: REAL Mercy me! Must get new glasses...... I gave you'll the FAX number for the King Arthur Catalog instead of the Telephone number.... Life is getting so complicated? The TOLL FREE PHONE number is: 1-800-827-6836 I'm sorry if I caused anyone to shake their heads in wonder??? Bev in Mn "looking for her glasses"! ------------------------------ From: mosley@artsci.wustl.edu (Kim Mosley) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 21:41:52 -0800 Subject: [none] I'm using an Hitachi almost daily and have found a recipe that works everytime. I want to share it. 1 3/8 cup water 3 cups of flour-usually 2 of ww and 1 of bread flour 2 tbl honey 2 tbl canola oil 1 tea salt 1 tea yeast (the very powerful kind from Sams) even grinding the ww I do it in 5 minutes. Kim Mosley mosley @artsci.wustl.edu ------------------------------ From: Reggie Dwork Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 22:16:34 -0800 Subject: Re: quiet Grain Mill? Yvonne - I purchased a Miracle Mill from Irwin Franzel and I think it is very quiet. I have used it about 4 times in 2 weeks and not only is is quiet but it works really well. I have been cracking wheatberries and it certainly does an excellent job. It doesn't heat up or heat the grain as far as I can tell either. Reggie ------------------------------ From: "Andy Hill" Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 21:41:50 -0800 Subject: Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #59 DEHOLD@ccmail.monsanto.com writes: > it seems that no matter what 'flavor' of bread that I make, they all have the > same "taste". I've changed flours but they still all have the similar > "background flavor". Is this normal? > Have you tried fresh flour? Flour (*especially* whole wheat) does go bad. - ---- Andy Hill ahill@boi.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Butts, Diane" Date: Wed, 24 Jan 96 8:24:54 -0500 Subject: Question about Pizza Dough Hello everyone: I love my new bread machine, especially the pizza dough recipe. Is there a way to make this in advance and store it in the fridge or freezer???? It takes to much time to start after work and if the dough is already made, I could just add the toppings. Thanks. *************************** Diane Butts phone: 202-501-7117 fax: 202-501-6093 e-mail: dbutts@usia.gov **************************** ------------------------------ From: Georgina Hansen Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 22:01:27 -0800 Subject: Recipes w/ spelt Hi - I'm new to the bread baker's list so I thought I'd send a question to the list. I have a friend who makes hand made bread (no bread machine) and who is allergic to wheat, so I'm looking for two things: 1) recipes using spelt, and 2) a converstion chart show substitute amounts for spelt and/or oat, rice and potato flour (or any combination of those) instead of wheat flour. Thank you. Georgina Hansen Sacramento, CA ------------------------------ From: sherae@zeta.org.au (Sheri McRae) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 11:14:33 +1100 Subject: Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #59 DeAnn, are you using enough fat (butter, olive oil, etc.) in your breads? It seems to me that dry bread is more often caused by lack of butter than lack of water. I don't know about your stumpies :-) but perhaps there is a problem with your machine since they used to be stilts and are now stumps. Cheers, Sheri Sheri McRae sherae@zeta.org.au Chickens, like two-edged swords, ofttimes come home to roost. - newspaper editor from Wisconsin ------------------------------ From: Mark.Sklaney@Microserve.com (Mark Sklaney) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 10:43:14 EST Subject: bread flour companies * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * I am looking for some companies that sell flour (via Internet or mail). The only one I know is King Aurthur. Does anyone have any addresses or telephone numbers of any others? Does anyone have any other sources? Please e-mail me or post to the list. Thanks. -Mark- --> mark.sklaney@microserve.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ------------------------------ From: bj3@ix.netcom.com (BJ) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 06:43:08 -0800 Subject: Herbs & Flavor (or Lack Thereof) Have noticed many times when I use herbs in a bread machine recipe, the final result is less than satisfactory. Yesterday, I was very disappointed when I made a dill bread from Bread Machine Magic - using lots of dill and lots of dried onion. It smelled great and all that, but when I took a taste, there was little, if any, of either the dill or the onion. My herbs/spices are not old - and work fine for regular cooking. What causes this in the bread machine? Has anyone else had this problem? Thanks for any help! Jeanne ------------------------------ From: bzwax@tiac.net (Rich & Debbie) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 15:45:42 -0500 Subject: [none] CHEFLZ@aol.com wrote: I have read of several methods of storing freshly baked bread,& I've had good luck in keeping it in a plastic bag(with air holes in it!) for about 1 1/2 weeks, except for a VERY, VERY moist loaf which I bagged & sealed(not wanting it to mold), & then refrigerated,BUT are there any better, or other ways? Hi, everyone: I don't store my bread as long as 1-1/2 weeks (we eat it too fast!), but usually keep it on the cutting board, cut side down. This is particularly good with a crusty loaf and it stays quite fresh. A more delicate bread wouldn't work as well. Best-Debbie Bier Concord, MA ------------------------------ From: Mark_Judman@colpal.com Date: Thu, 25 Jan 96 14:45:26 EST Subject: Bialys -- What's the Secret? I've made bialys from four different recipes in cookbooks; all looked, tasted, smelled wrong and had the wrong texture. Only one cookbook author (Joan Nathan) had the onion filling right (bread crumbs are mixed in with the onions). (The ones sold in bagel shops are almost universally wrong; they're not just bagels with failed holes and an onion filling.) OK. What's the secret? It appears to be a lost art. I've heard special high gluten flour. All the above were straight doughs. I suspect that the real, genuine item may be made with a sourdough or with a poolish (starter). Anyone know and willing to tell? Mark Judman (Mark_Judman@colpal.com) ------------------------------ From: widera@unr.edu (Debra Widera) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 12:41:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Red-grape sourdough starter Terry, I tried this starter last year & was really disappointed. I kept it going, though, and tried making bread from it even though it was not "progressing" as it should. The bread was a semi-disaster. But, I didn't throw out the starter; instead, I added a little granulated yeast (maybe 1/4 tsp.) to the starter & treated it the same (feeding, stirring, etc.). After about 2 weeks, it smelled just like wine (honest!) and when I used it 2 days later, I got the most flavorful bread imaginable! I have also made a starter in this *combined* method with onion--really great, esp. if you like onion sourdough! Good luck, Debra widera@unr.edu ------------------------------ From: jguevara@spin.com.mx (Jenka Guevara) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 20:19:54 -0600 Subject: salt and powdered milk Lately I have been ommiting the salt and the powdered milk on my bread, and I really have not noticed any differences. The best bread I have been making is the Honey Oat that was posted some days ago, but I made some changes, I put 1 cup white flour 1 cup whole wheat flour two BIG tablespoons honey 1 cup sour dough starter 2 teaspoons yeast more than one cup water, as needed first by mistake and than seeing it was not needed I skipped salt and milk It comes out great Jenka ********************************* Jenka Guevara American School Foundation Mexico City jguevara@spin.com.mx ------------------------------ From: cmathew@iadfw.net (Craig & Joan Mathew) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 09:09:53 -0600 (CST) Subject: ??sources for bulk rapid-rise yeast Hello all, I do a lot of bread making, so my consumption of yeast is rather high. I like to use the rapid-rise (such as Fleischmann's RapidRise) yeast, but can only find that in the little foil envelopes (which are very expensive). I'd like to find it in bulk form (e.g., a whole jar of the stuff -- about 4 ounces, I think) but can only find jars of "regular" yeast. Does anyone make rapid-rise yeast sold in bulk form??? I'm not too picky about brand names as long as it works well. Help! Now for a follow-on question: what is the actual difference between regular yeast and rapid-rise yeast? Through my own experiments I have noticed there is a noticeable difference in rising time, but what do they actually do to the yeast to cause it to be different? Joan ------------------------------ From: stevens@mplvax.mpl.com Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 15:32:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: bread-bakers-digest V6 #57 Hi Bread bakers of America, I've been a member for over 2 years. I have never written. I do enjoy reading and I do like some of the receipes. I have been touched by the letter from Dave J. concerning his Hitachi bread maker. Down through the years I have heard many negative comments. I have made over 500 loafs with my Hitachi bread maker in the last 3 years. The only problem I have had is trying to make too big of a loaf. I buy the yeast at Sam's and flour to. I make most of my bread on the rapid cycle because when I bake I bake 2 or 3 loafs. I love my machine and have never had any problems. I bake bread for weddings, partys and church gatherings. Everyone like my bread. The main thing I will stress, when adding or experimenting watch your moisture. Thank you very much and I will continue to watch and read the bread mail. Jamie Stevens ------------------------------ From: ellen@brakes.elekta.com Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 12:49:24 -0400 Subject: RE: Fed up w/my bread machine Hi DeAnn! I'm sorry that you have had so much bad luck with your bread machine! From your description, it sounds like you have Zo N15 (or "little" Zo) which is NOT at all the same machine as the S15 (or the S-15A). It was designed to compete in the $100 machine market, and I have not heard particularly good things about this model. It definitely has not received the superior ratings of the "big" Zo. As a new bread machine owner and baker, I am not qualified to offer you much advise, but hopefully others on this list will. One idea, though, is: have you tried the Zo customer service line? Maybe they can give you some model specific tips. And if you still have problems, maybe they'd be willing to let you trade up your machine for the S-15(A). Let them know that you are telling the entire world about your dissatisfaction with their product. :-) I am very sure that you would produce satisfactory bread in the S-15(A)! Good luck! - -- Ellen ellen@brakes.elekta.com ------------------------------ From: ellen@brakes.elekta.com Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 12:33:14 -0400 Subject: Breads too sweet Other than the one failed loaf I posted about here, I've been having much fun and success with my new Zo. (We can't eat the bread as fast as I can make it. :-) ) However, my one complaint is that every loaf I've made has tasted too sweet and rich for me. On occassion, this is fine, but every loaf I've tried, from a buttermilk to several different whole wheat loaves have been too sweet. (The range of sweetness has been from 2 tbl honey or sugar up to 1/3 cup--and that one was really icky.) I would like for the sweetness to not be so prevalent in breads that accompany savory dishes. So, how much can I reduce the sugar or honey in recipes without significantly changing the texture or "stalling" the yeast? And, in case it makes a difference, I have not been using any fats in the loaves I've tried. I have either simply omitted the fat, or replaced it with unsweetened applesacue. (Which is probably contributing to my complaint.) Thank you all so much for your expert advise! - -- Ellen ellen@brakes.elekta.com ------------------------------ From: cmathew@iadfw.net (Craig & Joan Mathew) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 07:13:12 -0600 (CST) Subject: ??yeast Hello all, I was in the grocery the other day looking for yeast, and I discovered jars of regular Fleischmann's yeast and another jar of the Fleischmann's yeast labelled "for bread machines". I don't have a bread machine, but I'm always curious...what is the difference between the 'regular' yeast vs. the one 'for bread machines'? Are they interchangeable? And, how are these different from the 'RapidRise' yeast (which I like very much)? Since I bake a lot of bread and am always experimenting with new techniques and recipes, the different kinds of yeasts interest me. Finally, I'd like to find mail-order sources for buying yeast in bulk. What I'd prefer is to find the rapid-rise yeast, but I will settle for the regular yeast. I know about King Arthur Flour Company, but is there anyone else that sells via mail-order? (I posted this question the other day, but silly me...I left out my location and some specifics) Thanks for any information you can provide, Joan Dallas, TX cmathew@iadfw.net ------------------------------ From: "Michael E. Grabenstein" Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 08:33:07 -0500 Subject: RE: stuck shaft/paddle... >Sometimes I find that the shaft that on which the mixing paddle sits for my >Zoji gets frozen. The darn thing just won't turn in either direction and I >don't usually find that this has happened until the poor machine is >straining to turn the shaft. NOT a pleasant discovery, because it means I >either have to get it going some way or make the dough by hand (horrors!). If it is under warranty call them up and get a new pan. This happened to my Regal too. I thought just getting it to turn was OK, but eventually it burned up the gears in my bread maker. Luckily it was still under warranty. And Regal fixed it no questions asked, their service is great. What happens is the seal that keeps bread from getting down in the shaft has shrunk over time. Dough gets in there then is baked and locks up the shaft. This is dangerous to the gears and motor of your bread maker. Replace the pan ASAP. Later, Mike, Michael.Grabenstein@gsfc.nasa.gov UNIX Administrator GSFC Libraries Project (http://www-library.gsfc.nasa.gov) #include /* The Maxima Corporation */ ------------------------------ From: LoisCon@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 13:06:35 -0500 Subject: bread digest response Thanks to my friend Bev, and my co-author Linda, I now have a complete recipe for Schlotsky's Rolls. Please E-mail me if you would like them. I did go into Schlotsky's, restaurant and had lunch so I could see what you are all raving about. They were good (and so different). Write me at: LoisCon @AOL.com Dee wrote about her troubles with the Zojirushi. It sounds like the BBCC-N15, although it does have a quick bread cycle. There are a few things left to try Dee, so don't chuck that machine yet. I will be sending you an Email with some helpful hints from our second book. Meanwhile, make sure you are using fresh bread flour, and that you are not scooping the flour, i.e. dipping your measuring cup into the flour cannister. Doing that can add flour to your recipe, resulting in heavy, dense loaves. You should aerate the flour, and then spoon the flour into the measuring cup and level it off with a knife. If any subscribers to this list are also on America Online, we have a bread machine chat, every Tuesday at 10PM Eastern in the Kitchen Conference Room. Keyword:Cooking Club If you need more information please contact me at LoisCon@AOL.com Thank you, Lois Conway, co-author with Linda Rehberg of Bread Machine Magic and The Bread Machine Magic Book of Helpful Hints. ------------------------------ From: kmeade@ids2.idsonline.com (The Meades) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 10:10:59 -0500 Subject: used Zojirushi I have the same model of bread machine that you have, I think. Dry milk, milk, sweet bread, and dough? I don't like the wheat breads that I get but then I am not a big wheat bread fan. It all tastes too heavy. I never buy bread any more. I know from when I first started that the type of flour I used made a difference. I am using King Arthur flour. Works better for me than others I have tried and I can get it at my local BJ's. Everyone in my family can make this loaf and everyone who eats it raves about it. Best if eaten within 5 hours of coming out of machine but good for several days. Kathy * Exported from MasterCook II * Kathy's Everyday White Bread Recipe By : Kathy Meade Serving Size : 1 Preparation Time :0:00 Categories : Brd. Machine - Bread Bread Machine Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method - -------- ------------ -------------------------------- 1 1/4 cups Water 2 tablespoons sugar 1 teaspoon salt 4 tablespoons butter 3 1/2 cups flour 2 teaspoons yeast follow machine directions. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Serving Ideas : Great Toast the second day ------------------------------ From: ClayCooker@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 21:36:54 -0500 Subject: Re: bbd #59 - Zoji problem This is for DeAnn who had a problem/lots of problems with her Zoji. I wish I was the person that could answer all your questions, but about the only thing I can suggest for you to do is to get a copy of Bread Machine Magic Book of Helpful Hints. It is written by two really nice ladies, one on AOL (Lois Conway) and one on Prodigy (Linda Rehberg). They know about everything there is to know about bread machines, their problems and strange quirks. The book is wonderful. They do so much testing on all the major bread machine brands BEFORE the book goes into print, so the reader doesn't end up having to be the recipe tester like so many books..! Hopefully one of the many problems that are covered could really help you. It even makes for good bed time reading! I do have a Zoji and 5 other machines too. They all have their good points as well as their not so good ones. I wish I could be of more help. Here is a real simple recipe from Bread Machine Magic you might try? It's called: DeDe's Buttermilk Bread. This is for a 1-1/2# Loaf: 1-1/8 to 1-1/4 Cups BUTTERMILK 3 T. HONEY 1-1/2 tsp. SALT 1 T. BUTTER or Margarine 3 Cups BREAD FLOUR 2 tsp. RED STAR brand active dry yeast. Select Light Crust setting, (or Sweet bread) press start. When the baking cycle ends, let cook 1 hour before slicing. Bev in Mn ------------------------------ From: Gerard_Mcmahon@ftdetrck-ccmail.army.mil Date: Tue, 23 Jan 96 11:32:00 EST Subject: Soft Pumpernickle bread Hi all, I tried this recipe last week and got a very short but rather tasty loaf. So I tried it again this week. I added 2 T of vital wheat gluten and upped the yeast to 1T but near the end of the 2nd rise it didn't look like it was going to get up again. So I took it out of the ABM and put it in a pan to rise for about 35 min longer, then baked it for 35 min at 350. The loaf rose nicely out of the pan during the bake and yeilded another very tasty loaf. It may have been o.k. if I'd left it alone in the BM. Gerry * Exported from MasterCook II * Soft Pumpernickle Bread Recipe By : Norman Garrett - Quick & Delicious BM Recipes Serving Size : 12 Preparation Time :0:00 Categories : Machine Norman Garrett Yeast Zo Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method - -------- ------------ -------------------------------- 1 Cup water -- 110 degrees 3 tablespoons honey 1 1/2 tablespoons molasses 1 tablespoon butter 2 teaspoons salt 3/4 cup rye flour 1 1/2 cups bread flour 3/4 cup wheat flour, whole-grain 2 teaspoons yeast Add ingredients to machine in order listed. Select white bread and press start. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: eslingerf@Alpha.tkm.mb.ca Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 01:32:24 +0000 Subject: DeAnn's breadmachine blues Dear Deann et al., I loved your letter. In August, I bought a Panasonic breadmachine and from the start made beautiful breads. Everything from basic white to specialty breads and they were all exquisite. Then one day in December, at the end of the cycle, I opened the lid to take out the loaf and it was a disaster. It had not risen well, was HEAVY and when sliced was so coarse and moist, would have made peasant bread look fine grained. In the following weeks, i had a variety of terrible loaves and in that time changed flour a couple times, could open my own yeast shop and since it was -40 outside decided that maybe my kitchen and ingredients were too cold(the old outside wall worry). I brought ingredients to room temperature to no avail and one evening in despeation, brought everything down to our family room and went through the process within 6 feet of our roaring fireplace. That was probably the worst loaf of the siege. During this time, I had a couple friends who were having less than the desired results too. We decided that it was a good thing that the ingredients aren't too expensive. Just as suddenly, a week and a half ago, I made a loaf of great bread again and since then every loaf has been beautiful.........Why and how I don't know. It is still bitterly cold and my flour cannister is on the outside wall, I am using the same flour and yeast, flour......... I better be quiet or the machine may hear me and decide I need another lesson in humility. I sincerely hope not. I love the list. Harriet Eslinger ------------------------------ From: kkoluch@cris.com (K. Koluch) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 15:56:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Storing flour/freezing dough Hi! I am new to this group and am really enjoying it! I have 2 questions that I think you can help me with: 1. I have run across a food supply store in town that sells high gluten flour for 11.95/50# bag. This is much cheaper than the "Better for Bread" flour I have been buying in the store. My question is how long can I store flour without it going bad? I use about one 5# bag per week, so I would have to be able to store it for 10 weeks (or share it with someone). 2. After doing this practice for many months I am reading in books that I am not supposed to freeze my bread dough. I have been making all of my bread dough for the week on Saturday, then punching it down, dividing it and freezing it (I obviously don't own a bread machine). During the week I pull out a frozen ball of dough each day around 10 am, let it defrost, shape it and let it rise again. It has been working perfectly for me. Can someone tell me why you should not do this? I originally tried it because I had figured if you could buy frozen bread dough then you ought to be able to freeze homemade dough. Comments? (or am I just waiting for the inevitable flop to happen?) Thanks for all the yummy recipes! Kim Koluch *************************************************************************** Kim Koluch kkoluch@cris.com Sylvania, Ohio http://www.cris.com/~kkoluch *************************************************************************** ****** Readers' Corner: http://www.cris.com/~kkoluch/readers.shtml ******** *************************************************************************** "A friend is someone who looks past your broken-down gate, and admires the flowers in your window" -Anonymous *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ End of bread-bakers-digest V6 #60 ********************************* bread-bakers-digest Saturday, 27 January 1996 Volume 06 : Number 061 Today's Subjects: advice needed from the experts here! Bread Comments on notes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Fox Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 13:04:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: advice needed from the experts here! Hi, I am very new to this list and to bread baking! I have always envied people who could bake real yeast bread. My mother loaned me her old Welbilt 1# bread machine and it sat untouched in my basement for about 6 months. Finally over the holidays, I was watching the video that came with my new Vita-Mix contemplating making bread dough with the Vita-Mix. I pulled out the bread machine instead and decided I would give it a try. I could not believe how easy it was - I was amazed at the small amount of mess and clean up - I had been baking quick breads and cookies like crazy and this was a dream come true. I rushed out and bought a bigger machine - The Breadman Plus - I haven't stopped baking bread and buying bread machine cookbooks. When I am not reading cookbooks (studying), I am baking bread - - well I do have other responsibilities which have taken second place to the study of bread baking. I am so excited to see that some of the authors I am reading are also on this list and here live in person (almost) answering questions. I have a million questions! I hope you will be patient with me!!!!! Oh -btw - I know now I have to have a programable machine which must be the Zo - right??? I have learned so much, but have many more questions. My favorite way to do bread is to remove the dough and bake it in the oven in some fashion. I can't believe how fun it is to make pizza - great pizza! I had a new pizza stone waiting to be used for months too that is being put to great use. Okay - here goes: 1. I will never put any oil/butter/fat etc. in anything I bake or cook. So I have been using subs like minced prunes 1:1, baby food prunes 1/2:1, Oatrim gel 1:1 (King Arthur), honey (experimenting). What advice do others have on this subject or results? I notice Reggie uses Wonderslim 1/2:1 - is this really comparable to using baby food prune (Gerber 1st in tiny jars - no tapioca)?. I have been using Oatrim gel when I don't want a color change in the dough - it seems to work fine and I end up with a really moist loaf. 2. Yeast - I have been using Fleischman's Gold Instant Yeast from King Arthur. I get good results using exactly what is called for in all recipes. Once I used Red Star regular yeast. I noticed it was very slow to rise in comparison to the other loaves I have made with it. However, I only tried it once so don't have much scientific evidence to say that it was the yeast. The people at King Arthur told me not to decrease the yeast in a recipe when using the Instant yeast. What are other people's experiences with this instant yeast? Some cookbooks say that instant yeast is double fast - but King Arthur says this one is not?????? I guess I should try a couple loaves with Red Star regular again. 3. There should be a warning about ignoring the addition of extra flour to a very wet sticky mixture in the machine when the recipe has rolled oats - it takes much more time for the oats to absorb the liquids. Btw - the recipe Jenka shared - Honey Oatmeal Bread was fantastic - I guessed right and resisted adding extra flour to the wet mess in my bread machine pan. After about 15 minutes the mixture had formed a perfect nice smooth ball and baked up perfectly! All the BM cookbooks I have read that describe how to assess the dough ball do not mention waiting longer if there are oats in the mixture! 4. What are some expert hints for finding a nice warm spot for rising of dough? I have been using my oven warmed for exactly one minute on the lowest temp - is this what others do? 5. All purpose flour - I totally understand the gluten thing. My question is why do so many recipes (esp German's book The Bread Machine Cookbook VI - Hand Shaped Breads From The Dough Cycle) call for all purpose flour? Is this because they do not need to rise as much and this is an okay sacrifice to have a more tender bread???????? Oh - also many of those recipes (BM Ckbk VI by German) call for Rapid or quick yeast - why???? and the book does not tell (I don't think - or it was not clear to me) how much to use if you use regular yeast - any advice?? The book "Electric Bread" always gives the alternative which is 1/2 as much rapid yeast as regular - but that does not seem to make sense given the amount of rapid yeast called for in German's books. Any clarification? 6. Does this list offer a bibliography of great bread baking books and a review? If not, that would be a wonderful thing to make available. I have always collected and read cookbooks - only recently bread baking/machine bread baking cookbooks. I feel I could write comments about all the ones I have been studying. 7. What is the best advice for making a 4 ounce thick chewy pita (like Father Sam's Pita (no fat added) if anyone knows of them) that is soft and has no added fat? I have read so many ideas for baking pita and all are different! I am afraid to try another method - the first attempt resulted in a small, thin, hard, crispy, no pocket pita! 8. What are people's favorite methods for shaping bagels - using a bagel cutter, shaping a ball and punching a hole in middle with thumb and shaping, rolling a snake and joining the ends??? Also - any successful bagel making tips or secrets? I have the book "The Best Bagels Are Made At Home" 9. Weight of a cup of flour! What a wide range of answers to that question! Of course weather can change this I suppose? King Arthur Flour Company states that their all purpose and white whole wheat multi purpose flour should weigh 4 ounces per cup. No matter how much I practice fluffing and carefully spoon sprinkling and leveling without tapping the container my cups weigh 4.5 ounces on my scale - which I think is pretty accurate???? I get the same weight for both kinds of flour. I ground my own flour in my Vita-Mix (wonderful results btw) and those cups of flour weighed 4.5-4.75 ounces per cup - closer to 4.5 ounces. I weighed a cup of Arrowhead Mills whole wheat flour and it weighed 4.75 ounces. Because I have been under such an intense study of all this I was wondering what the experts on this list say? I finally just quit weighing stuff all the time. I am really consistent with my measuring - I think. There is a BM ckbk that came with my Breadman Plus that gives the weights of the ingredients as well as the measures - they assume that a cup of flour weighs 5 or more ounces per cup (whole wheat) - - if I put the weight of flour in that this book calls for, my bread would be doorstops! Shouldn't flour weigh a little less in the winter? 9. Is there a place somewhere that reviews bread machines? I know this list is trying to put together something like that. I'd love to hear from people who have a Breadman Plus. Even though I am sure I will also be ordering the Zo! 10. Is there a way to make a Banneton at home rather than pay $50 for one? Do they yield wonderful looking loaves? How do you get the risen dough onto the peel and onto the hot baking stone without killing it? 11. What are some hints for shaping a pizza dough and then getting it onto the pizza peel without ruining it and putting on the toppings then into the oven onto the hot pizza stone successfully? Where should the pizza stone be placed in the oven? I have mine on the lower rack to keep it out of the way. It is big - 16" and heavy, so I don't want to have to move it all the time. Will having the stone in the oven cause it to preheat (the oven) more slowly? My husband was cooking a frozen entre like he always does once a week and for the first time using the same temp and bake time the food was still cold. I was wondering if it was due to the stone in the oven? I read somewhere that everything will bake better with a baking stone in your oven???? 12. Slashing the tops of loaves - Yikes! I am scared to death to do this for fear of killing the loaf! Should I use a straight edge sharp razor? Any hints? I have more questions and will develop more questions! But, I will stop for now as not to overload everyone! Thanks sooooooooooooo much in advance for any advice! I really appreciate the owners of this list for making it available! Angie Fox Bloomington, IN ------------------------------ From: Sally Eisenberg Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 14:24:20 -0800 Subject: Bread Hi Everyone, Made this bread over the weekend and it is a real good tasting bread. Enjoy. Sally * Exported from MasterCook II * Dutch Crunch Bread Recipe By : Sunset Magazine Serving Size : 1 Preparation Time :0:00 Categories : Breads Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method - -------- ------------ -------------------------------- 3/4 cup water -- warmed 1 teaspoon sugar 1 package active dry yeast 1/2 teaspoon salt 1 Tablespoon butter or margarine -- melted 2 1/2 cups all-purpose flour Dutch Crunch Topping 2 teaspoons sugar 2 packages active dry yeast 1/4 teaspoon salt 6 Tablespoons white rice flour 1 teaspoon salad oil 1/3 cup water -- warm 1. Combine warm water and sugar in a bowl. Add yeast and stir briefly; let stand until bubbly ( About 10 minutes ). Add salt and butter. 2. Stir in 1 1/2 cups of the flour. To knead with a dough hook, add 1/2 cup more flour and beat on high speed until dough is springy and pulls away from sides of bowl ( about 8 minutes ), adding more flour, few tablespoons at a time, if dough is sticky. 3. Cover with plastic wrap and let rise in a warm place until doubled ( 45 to 60 minutes). Meanwhile, prepare Dutch Crunch Topping. 4. Punch dough down and knead briefly on a lightly floured board to release air. Shape into a loaf and place in a greased 4-by 8-inch loaf pan. Spread topping over dough. Let stand, uncovered, in a warm place until puffy ( 20 to 25 minutes ). 5. Bake in a 375 degrees F oven until deep golden brown ( 50 to 60 minutes ). Turn loaf out onto a rack and let cool. Makes 1 loaf. Dutch Crunch Topping In a large bowl stir together all the ingredients and cover and let rise in a warm place until double (35 to 40 minutes ). Stir well. If made ahead, cover and let stand for up to 15 minutes; stir before using. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - NOTES : I made this bread without the Dutch Crunch Topping, and the bread itself was just great. It's a light-textured loaf with a crisp crust. Great for sandwiches. Lou&Sally Eisenberg sparky@netgate.net ------------------------------ From: CPXD31A@prodigy.com (MR IRWIN H FRANZEL) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 13:19:22 EST Subject: Comments on notes I just had the chance to look over the 1/22 Newsletter and would like to comment on some of the subjects. 1. STUCK BLADE. Although it is very easy to remove the kneading paddle from the shaft in the Zoji bread pan, there is a design feature that many people don't realize. The paddle in the Zoji models S-15 and S-15A, is designed to lock onto the shaft so that it cannot come off in the bread or cake. If you have one of these and have a problem with removing the blade, please get the bread pan with the blade installed, now! Hold the "T" bar at the bottom of the pan with one hand and grasp the blade inside the pan with the other. You will notice that the blade will move freely to left and right, through a swing of 1" to 1-1/2". It cannot be removed at either end of its swing! If the blade is moved to the center of the free swing region, it may be lifted off, easily! After baking a bread, there will be some dough baked into the space between the blade and shaft. This may be softened with a few drops of dish soap (not dishwasher detergent) and some hot water. Let it stand for 5 to 10 minutes, hold the "T" bar and move the blade back and forth to free it and lift it off in the middle of its swing. 2. QUIET GRAIN MILLS. We have tested most available grain mills. The way we got involved in this is quite interesting and I'll tell you about it. Many of our Rehab clients have the need for physical therapy for their upper body, following one of several types of injury. It is very difficult to get patients to do this kind of exercise at home. We proposed grinding grain by hand and acquired a number of mills which we sold to our clients (and others) for this purpose. We worked hard and long to find a foolproof, good tasting recipe for this and the grinding program worked! People who wouldn't do the exercise for themselves, would do it for their beloved Zojis! The taste of 100% whole wheat bread made from freshly ground wheat was so superior to that made from commercially ground wheat that we couldn't believe the results. We conducted tests in Sarasota and a Zoji owner in Ohio offered to conduct the same test there. We each made several loaves that were made with commercial whole wheat flour and freshly ground WW flour. To our amazement, we got 100% preference of 100 people who compared pieces of the two different kinds of loaves in Sarasota and 100% preference in Ohio for the freshly ground wheat bread of the people who participated there! Everybody wanted a grain mill, but many had physical limitations that precluded using a manual unit! Those with arthritis or carpal tunnel, simply couldn't use their arms for the job and we had to find a suitable electric mill. We bought almost every mill that was available to us for testing. The Magic Mill was very good at grinding but had several other serious problems: a). It made enough noise to cause damage to hearing! b). It was very difficult to assemble and dissassemble! c). It was very difficult to clean. The Kitchen Aide adapter for grinding flour also had several problems: a). It was difficult to adjust for fineness of grind. b). It was possible to set it so that metallic particles wore off the grinding heads and fell into the flour.. c). It was quite expensive considering that the driving motor was already owned. We found that the German made Jupiter mill was very good. It was relatively quiet, easy to assemble and take apart and it did a good grinding job. It was, unfortunately, expensive, about $400. The company from whom we had bought the Jupiter Mill had an idea and contracted with a Polish company to produce a copy of the Jupiter, with a nylon housing for considerably less. They sent one to us for evaluation and this one worked better than the Jupiter! They had added an indexed grind setting that made it possible to exactly duplicate the finess of grind from one time to the next. It was relatively quiet and very easy to assemble, take apart, use and clean. It was called the MIRACLE MILL and while it was designed to be sold for $190, we could deliver it to our customers for $150. The Miracle Mill comes with a three year factory warranty! We have sold a lot of these Miracle Mills and they work very well indeed! In our labratory, we have developed breads made from hard, red, winter wheat. It is the best tasting whole wheat bread we have ever eaten! The grain can be bought in 25-50 pounds sacks and can be ground to make breads, a toasted wheat cereal like Wheatena for about 25 cents a pound compared to $3.19 for an 11 oz box. We are working on making a wheat cereal like Wheaties, which will also cost about 25-30 cents per pound. 3. PRICE REDUCTION. Our price on the Zoji has been the lowest in the country for years. We have sold over 1400 of these wonderful machines for $260, delivered. Zoji has reduced the wholesale price to us and although the UPS charges and packing box prices have increased, we can pass the savings on to you. Brand new Zoji S-15As bought from Delta Rehabilitation, Inc., are now $250, including shipping, handling and insurance. There is no sales tax if you do not live in Florida. 4. PROOFING YEAST. A number of helpful suggestions have been submitted on this subject. We have been testing yeast for four years and would suggest the complete process of proofing has to include all the following steps: 1. Start with 1/2 cup water betwee 100-115 degrees F. 2. Add 1 tsp sugar in the water and stir to dissolve it. 3. Sprinkle 1 tsp yeast on the surface and stir to be sure that all the yeast is wet. 4. Allow to stand for 5 minutes. There should be a foamy top. 5. Check at 10 minutes and the cup should have a substantial head, whose height depends upon the dimension of the container you are using. 6. If there is no foamy head, throw that package of yeast away and get some new yeast. It is a good idea to proof fresh yeast when opened. This will provide a baseline with which you can compare it when you use the same type container to proof it again, later in its life. We have found that yeast stored properly and used properly has a life of at least 4 years. (That's how long we have been testing). 5. ALL PURPOSE FLOUR. When we started our bread baking program in 1992, we found that buying all purpose flour and adding pure gluten, provided us with an excellent bread flour at lower cost than buying bread flour! I spoke to the Director of Research at Red Star Yeast at that time and he explained that the protein content of flour is 80% gluten. At 12% protein, the gluten content is 10% and that is considered to be "bread" flour. Flours vary from season to season and adjustments have to be made, usually by the addition of gluten, to produce bread flour. Last year, the assay numbers seemed to be mixed up. Some bread flours had a lower percentage of protein than all purpose flours. I noticed this at Sam's Wholesale Clubs and others reported seeing such disparities elsewhere. We went back to buying all purpose flour and adding gluten at the rate of 1-1/2 tsp per cup white flour and 1 Tbs (twice as much) for whole grain flours. The total costs were less than buying the "bread" flour, if the gluten were bought in bulk at $2.00 per pound. My E-Mail address is CPXD31A@PRODIGY.COM. If you would like an E-Mail copy of our catalog, just ask for it. Our mail address is: Delta Rehabilitation, Inc. 411 Bryn Mawr Island Bradenton FL 34207 Our toll free telephone number is: 1 (800) 641-9093. Best wishes. Irwin ------------------------------ End of bread-bakers-digest V6 #61 ********************************* bread-bakers-digest Saturday, 27 January 1996 Volume 06 : Number 062 Today's Subjects: Counts Fed up with my bread machine RECIPE: Yummy Sandwich Bread Please, what went wrong? the elusive flavors of sourdough starters ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Reggie & Jeff Dwork Date: Sat 27 Jan 1996 Subject: Counts Hi everyone, I wanted to share some really exciting news with all of you. We just did a subscriber count and since Jan 21 we have gained 651 new members!! This makes a total of 2342 subscribers to the digest. Can you tell I have worked my fingers to the bone doing subscribes this past week?? We want to thank everyone for their support and interest in the digest. It certainly wouldn't be as successful as it appears to be without the help all of you give to each other each week. Reggie & Jeff - -- Reggie & Jeff Dwork Owners, bread-bakers, eat-lf, otbf (OverTheBackFence) Mailing Lists For info write or ------------------------------ From: CPXD31A@prodigy.com (MR IRWIN H FRANZEL) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 13:19:16 EST Subject: Fed up with my bread machine In the V6-59 newsletter, DeAnn Holden writes that she is: FED UP WITH MY BREAD MACHINE! I don't blame her. I have always regretted the fact that Zojirushi, an old line company, well known for its excellent and durable equipment has seen fit to try to compete with others to produce a low cost machine. The old S-15 and now the S-15A are ABMs that produce good bread consistently. That is not because they are more expensive, it is because nothing was spared to make those machines do the job. For example, do you know that these models do kneading in both direction? That the kneading blade is a hydrofoil that pulls and stretches the dough in one direction and lifts it and shears it in the other direction of rotation? Watch one do its job and you'll see how different the process is. For bread to rise properly and to have a uniform texture, it has to be kneaded enough, not only to mix the ingredients together, but also to develop the gluten into long chains that make the dough elastic and capable of holding the dough together when the yeast bubbles expand. Our testing of bread machines is done like this: We mix four copies of the same recipes, omitting yeast and water. We put one batch into each machine and measure the output volume and observe the texture of the loaf. if the difference is large, we bake two more loaves. In these tests, the Zoji S15 and S15A has always produced a loaf of greater volume and more even texture. Over the years, our largest sales have not come in December but in January. That is because many people who buy or receive ABMs for gifts, try them, return them to the store where they were purchased and order an S-15A from us. We have been told that more than 50% of all bread machines purchased have been returned for refund or credit! During the last four years, we have had only one person who wanted to return her Zoji! If you really want to solve your problem, DeAnn, you might well try an S-15A. Best wishes. Irwin ------------------------------ From: cmathew@iadfw.net (Craig & Joan Mathew) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 11:13:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: RECIPE: Yummy Sandwich Bread Hello all, Here's an absolutely scrumptious recipe that originated in the cookbook that came with my Cuisinart. I've made some variations to it, and I hope you like it as much as I do. I've made this recipe with my KitchenAid and also with my food processor (I have a 14-cup), and the results are excellent either way. I don't have a bread machine, but I'm sure it can be converted satisfactorily. Joan Yummy Sandwich Bread - -------------------- Yield: 2 standard-sized loaves (using loaf pans) 2 c. bread flour 1-1/2 c. whole-wheat flour 1 tsp. sugar 2 Tbsp. firmly packed brown sugar 1 tsp. salt 1/2 tsp. ground ginger 2 Tbsp. butter, chilled and cut into pieces 1 Tbsp. active dry yeast (I use rapid-rise) 1 c. plus 3 Tbsp. cold or lukewarm water Insert metal blade in work bowl of food processor. Add flours, sugars, salt, ginger, and butter; process for approx. 20 seconds. Add yeast and process for approximately 10 seconds more to fully mix the ingredients. Add water; process until dough forms a ball in the work bowl. Insert dough blade and continue processing for approximately 2 minutes. Remove dough to greased glass container; cover loosely with tea towel or plastic wrap. Set in a warm, draft-free location until doubled in bulk; punch down. Repeat. Punch down dough; divide into two equal-sized pieces. Form into loaves and place in lightly greased (I use Pam cooking spray) loaf pans. Cover loosely with tea towel or plastic wrap; place in warm, draft-free location until dough reaches the top of the loaf pans. Preheat oven to 375F. Uncover loaves and bake for 30 minutes. Remove loaves from pans and place back into oven, baking for 10 more minutes. Remove to cooling racks and cool for at least 30 minutes before slicing. If freezing loaves for later use, cool thoroughly (about 90 minutes). This recipe yields an extremely fluffy, airy loaf with a very pleasant texture which is perfect for making toast and sandwiches. NOTE: I have doubled this recipe when using my KitchenAid with excellent results. ------------------------------ From: ellen@brakes.elekta.com Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 12:21:28 -0400 Subject: Please, what went wrong? Well, after making 6 loaves of bread in my Zo with much success, I finally had my first failure. I attempted to make the small loaf (recipe follows), and I did, indeed, get a SMALL loaf! It was only a few inches high. The texture wasn't doughy or terribly tough (ie, it was not a hockey puck!), but it was quite chewy and dense. It smelled great and tasted OK warm, but tasted a little "raw" and yeasty once cooled. I watched the dough and it seemed quite wet (it wasn't pulling together into a ball), so I did about 2T of flour. And I omitted the vegetable oil. (I've had to cut down the liquid or add more flour to every dough I've tried so far.) I've gone through all the "what went wrong" checklists in Lois & Linda's "Helpful Hints" book, and can't find a match. Any other ideas? Has anyone else had success with this recipe? I'm sure it is wonderful when it works! Thanks. Ellen ellen@brakes.elekta.com * Exported from MasterCook Mac * Apple Oatmeal Bread Recipe By : EAT-L, Donna German The Bread Machine Cookbook II Serving Size : 1 Preparation Time :0:00 Categories : Bread Machine Breads Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method - -------- ------------ -------------------------------- --small-- 2/3 cup applesauce, unsweetened 1 tablespoon vegetable oil 1 tablespoon honey 1/3 teaspoon salt 1/4 teaspoon cinnamon 1 cup oats 1 cup bread flour 1 teaspoon yeast 1/4 cup dried apples -- diced --medium-- 1 cup applesauce, unsweetened 1 1/2 tablespoons vegetable oil 1 1/2 tablespoons honey 1/2 teaspoon salt 1/3 teaspoon cinnamon 1 1/2 cups oats 1 1/2 cups bread flour 1 1/2 teaspoons yeast 1/3 cup dried apples -- diced At the beep add the diced dried apples. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: emily@goblin.com (Emily Woudenberg) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 20:56:54 -0700 Subject: the elusive flavors of sourdough starters Hi! I have been lurking for a few weeks, ever since I subscribed to this interesting and informative listserv. The sourdough starter "lore" is especially fascinating, and I have my own two-cents to add to it. Regarding increasing the sourness of a starter through various techniques of feeding it, etc.; I understand that one good way to increase the starter's sour flavor is to keep it at room-temperature and use it (or discard a cup and replenish it again ) relatively often, like every three-four days. (This agrees with those who suggest feeding and using the starter often, but adds the variable of not allowing it to go dormant in the refrigerator.) Since all starters get more sour with age, this would tend to speed up the aging process. Obviously, one would want to keep an eye on the starter in very hot weather to be sure it doesn't use up all its nutrients and die. Regarding getting that elusive "San Francisco Taste"--I agree with Jackie Link that the best way is to buy San Francisco-type sourdough bread already baked. The temperature of the ovens, the way steam is injected into them, and above, all, the particular starter these professional bakeries use seem impossible to duplicate. I also have three starters, one given me by a friend, that is three generations old, one that I purchased from the King Arthur Flour catalog over a year ago, and one that I bought over the internet a few weeks ago. The flavors of all three are only very subtley different. I tend to use them all in rotation. A "yeast expert" told me that every home bread-baker's kitchen has its own individual wild-yeast spores flying around, and that eventually all the starters will begin to taste somewhat alike, as these spores mix and match. I don't have definative scientific proof of this last fact, but it might explain why my starters end up tasting so similar. I buy my dried yeast in bulk from the KIng Arthur catalog. They have a special one formulated not only for bread-makers, but for sourdough breads in particular. But I really can't tell the difference between this one and the regular bread-machine dried yeast that they sell. By the way, thanks for all the great recipes and cook-book recommendations. - --Emily Woudenberg Emily Woudenberg emily@goblin.com ------------------------------ End of bread-bakers-digest V6 #62 ********************************* bread-bakers-digest Sunday, 4 February 1996 Volume 06 : Number 063 Today's Subjects: converting recipes for KitchenAid Re: advice needed from the experts here! Excuse My Dust Breadman Plus freezing dough Yeast Yeast Re: advice needed Clear Flour Re: honey oat bread Re: Bialys -- What's the Secret? Re: Herbs & Flavor (or Lack Therof) Freezing bread dough ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cmathew@iadfw.net (Craig & Joan Mathew) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 08:17:27 -0600 (CST) Subject: converting recipes for KitchenAid Hello all, Someone asked about converting bread machine recipes so that they can be used with a KitchenAid. I use my KitchenAid for making most of my bread, so I thought I'd offer a few suggestions...these are not scientific, just things that seem to work for me: 1. I am usually able to double a bread machine recipe in my KitchenAid, since I have the 5-quart model. This generally yields 2 regular-sized loaves, or you can make rolls or buns out of it if you wish. 2. Sometimes I have to cut back a little on the flour as the dough gets a little dry...you'll have to experiment, but sometimes I cut back 1/2 to 1 cup, depending on the recipe. The humidity in the air will tend to affect this, too. 3. My general procedure for making bread dough in the KitchenAid is this: Add all the dry ingredients except for 1 cup of flour and the yeast. Mix thoroughly with flat beater. Add yeast; mix thoroughly once again. Add liquid ingredients (e.g., water, honey, molasses). With the flat beater hook *still on*, mix on slow speed until dough starts to form a ball and/or dough is extremely thick and difficult to blend with beater. Change to dough hook and knead on slow speed for approx. 7-9 mins. If dough is sticky during first 5 minutes of kneading, add additional flour in 1/4 cup increments. You may finish off dough by hand if you wish, but I never have any problems with how the KitchenAid kneads it. I hope I haven't left anything out above...haven't had my morning coffee yet... :) Please feel free to email me if you have questions. Joan cmathew@iadfw.net ------------------------------ From: cmathew@iadfw.net (Craig & Joan Mathew) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 08:54:34 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: advice needed from the experts here! >From: Angela Fox >Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 13:04:41 -0500 (EST) >Subject: advice needed from the experts here! Hello Angela, Whew! You have a long post here, but I'll try to jump in where I've had experience. I'm not terribly scientific about my baking...I tend to be a lot like my mother in that respect, who throws in a "little bit of this" and a "little bit of that". But I'm successful, and I suppose that's what counts in the end...and I enjoy it! So...I will offer some suggestions here and perhaps it will generate an interesting (not flaming, please!) discussion...and maybe I'll learn something, too! >I am very new to this list and to bread baking! Welcome to the list! >Finally over the holidays, I was watching the video that came >with my new Vita-Mix contemplating making bread dough with the Vita-Mix. I also have a Vita-Mix! I've had mine for about 6 years, though...it has the stainless steel container, and I think the new ones have a glass container...am I right? Don't know how these new ones knead bread, but I can tell you that the old one doesn't do as good a job as you might like. It just doesn't turn the dough around enough to get it really "worked". And, it is incredibly difficult to clean that gooey dough out of the bottom of that narrow little container. Please don't get me wrong...you should definitely try this in your new machine...perhaps they've improved the new ones somehow and it works much better. Just don't expect miracles from this particular appliance... I also have a KitchenAid Proline mixer and a Cuisinart 14-cup food processor. I've found that those do a much better job of kneading dough. The KitchenAid comes in first, hands down! >1. I will never put any oil/butter/fat etc. in anything I bake or cook. >So I have been using subs like minced prunes 1:1, baby food prunes 1/2:1, >Oatrim gel 1:1 (King Arthur), honey (experimenting). What advice do >others have on this subject or results? I notice Reggie uses Wonderslim >1/2:1 - is this really comparable to using baby food prune (Gerber 1st in >tiny jars - no tapioca)?. I have been using Oatrim gel when I don't want >a color change in the dough - it seems to work fine and I end up with a >really moist loaf. You don't say what kind of breads you're making here...but I gather you're making sweet types of breads raised with yeast...is that correct? In that instance, it sounds like what you're using are fine substitutes, and quite delicious it sounds like! As long as your dough is moist enough you'll do fine, and you should be able to judge this fairly well as you're kneading and working it. >2. Yeast - I have been using Fleischman's Gold Instant Yeast from King >Arthur. I get good results using exactly what is called for in all >recipes. Once I used Red Star regular yeast. I noticed it was very slow >to rise in comparison to the other loaves I have made with it. However, >I only tried it once so don't have much scientific evidence to say that >it was the yeast. The people at King Arthur told me not to decrease the >yeast in a recipe when using the Instant yeast. What are other people's >experiences with this instant yeast? Some cookbooks say that instant >yeast is double fast - but King Arthur says this one is not?????? I >guess I should try a couple loaves with Red Star regular again. Frankly, I've never heard the term "instant yeast". All I know about is the granular stuff you can buy either in little foil packets (1/4 ounce each), 4 ounce jars, or in bulk (e.g., 1-lb. packets). Although I've recently looked into buying yeast in bulk, I have previously used the foil packets (rather expensive), and the 4-oz. jars. I really like the RapidRise yeast put out by Fleischmann's, but honestly haven't tried the other brands; therefore, I can't comment on how well they might work. I, too, would appreciate some discussion and comments on various brand names and how they work. Also, I was told that different brands often yield different flavors in the finished product, so I'd like to hear more about that. >4. What are some expert hints for finding a nice warm spot for rising of >dough? I have been using my oven warmed for exactly one minute on the >lowest temp - is this what others do? I did this for years when I lived in apartments. Now, in my new house, I have a KitchenAid wall oven which also has a proofing/dehydrate function. You can set it for an even 100F and put the dough in there to rise, creating a nice warm environment. I also generally put a measuring cup full of warm water in there to help create some humidity...it seems to help the dough rise better and avoids that awful dried-out top that sometimes occurs when they're not covered quite right. If I've been baking quite a bit during the day, my kitchen warms up nicely anyway, so I've found that just leaving the bowl of dough out on my counter or near my range's oven vents will do fine...loosely covered of course to prevent drafts. Also, if it's a nice, sunny day, I put my dough in the kitchen windowsill where it gets some nice warmth from the sun (my kitchen faces east) in the morning. Sometimes folks who drive by will see about 6 bowls of dough sitting there to rise....they must think I'm nuts! :) >5. All purpose flour - I totally understand the gluten thing. My >question is why do so many recipes (esp German's book The Bread Machine >Cookbook VI - Hand Shaped Breads From The Dough Cycle) call for all >purpose flour? Is this because they do not need to rise as much and this >is an okay sacrifice to have a more tender bread???????? I can't really say why those cookbooks call for all-purpose flour; however, in *any* bread recipe I use which calls for some kind of white type flour like all-purpose, I generally use bread flour...unless it's a pastry type of bread like kuchen...then I use pastry flour (not the self-rising type). I find that the pastry flour for delicate yeast-raised pastries seems to give a finer texture and grain. >Oh - also many of those recipes (BM Ckbk VI by German) call for Rapid or >quick yeast - why???? >and the book does not tell (I don't think - or it was not clear to me) >how much to use if you use regular yeast - any >advice?? The book "Electric Bread" always gives the alternative which is >1/2 as much rapid yeast as regular - but that does not seem to make sense >given the amount of rapid yeast called for in German's books. Any >clarification? Since I don't have a bread machine I can't really say how yeast is used in those machines; however, I generally use the same amount of yeast in most of my recipes, regardless of whether it's RapidRise or regular yeast. The only difference I've found (so far) is that it takes a different amount of time to rise. My RapidRise will sometimes go through an entire rising in just 30-45 mins., whereas the regular yeast usually takes about 90-120 mins. for me. That's just my experience, but I'm sure others can provide some insight here. >6. Does this list offer a bibliography of great bread baking books and a >review? If not, that would be a wonderful thing to make available. I >have always collected and read cookbooks. For a book which offers many many many recipes, plus instructions for each designed for mixer, food processor, or machine, I heartily recommend Bernard Clayton's _New Complete Book of Bread_. This is, by far, the most often-used bread book in my repertoire...it is absolutely great, and the recipes are easy-to-follow (IMO). >8. What are people's favorite methods for shaping bagels - using a bagel >cutter, shaping a ball and punching a hole in middle with thumb and >shaping, rolling a snake and joining the ends??? I use the old hand-form method...rolling a snake and joining the ends, punching a hole with the thumb...it's a lot of fun, especially when my husband pitches in! The only thing I can say regarding tips about bagels is that "real" bagels (oh oh...I sense possible flames coming on this one) are always boiled prior to the baking step. When I do this, I get a couple of Dutch ovens or big kettles going on the stove...I put about 3 Tbsp. of sugar into each kettle of water and get it going to a gentle simmer...just enough that the water is moving but not rolling violently. Your bagels should already be formed and ready to go when you get to this step!! Then just drop the bagels into the kettles of hot water and cook for about 30-45 seconds on each side. Take them out and place on a sheet covered with waxed paper or a dry tea towel (this helps them to dry off a little so they're not soggy). When all the bagels have been boiled, place them carefully on your baking sheet (or stone) and bake per the instructions in the recipe! If anyone can suggest improvements on my method above, I'd certainly enjoy hearing them...I love making bagels, and I am always eager to hear new suggestions! >I ground my own flour in my Vita-Mix (wonderful results btw) Mmmm!! I'll bet you enjoyed that fresh flour!! That's almost as much of a pleasure as smelling that bread baking.... :) >10. Is there a way to make a Banneton at home rather than pay $50 for >one? Do they yield wonderful looking loaves? How do you get the risen >dough onto the peel and onto the hot baking stone without killing it? Aha...Bernard Clayton to the rescue again...don't have the book handy at the moment, but I think in his _Bread of France_ he has several discussions and pictures of this whole process. In any case, the book has excellent recipes, so you might just want to take a look at it anyway. I know I've seen other discussions of this elsewhere, but the sources escape me at the moment....? >11. What are some hints for shaping a pizza dough and then getting it >onto the pizza peel without ruining it and putting on the toppings then >into the oven onto the hot pizza stone successfully? Well, in my typical unscientific way...I think the best-tasting pizzas are the ones that LOOK homemade! What I'm really saying here is...don't sweat the small stuff...if it is a reasonable facsimile of a circle (or even a rectangle, which is very nice for pizza squares for a crowd) don't worry about it not being exactly round... As for shaping it, I very quickly lift it up and plop it down on the peel (which has a little bit of cornmeal sprinkled on it for "ease of movement"). Quickly slather those toppings on, then head for the oven... Finally, for getting that pizza into the oven without interacting with the floor... :) The best way I can think of to describe this is to think of accidentally touching your hand to a hot part of the oven. You tend to jerk away suddenly. Well, it's much the same with that pizza peel...I carefully slide the peel into the oven so that it -- with the pizza on top -- is in the general vicinity of its final resting place (did that sound right???). Here's where that "finesse" comes in with the wrist movement...you quickly jerk your wrist back so that the peel slides out from under the pizza and the pizza very neatly plops down into its chosen position on the baking stone. Remember, the peel should have some cornmeal sprinkled on it so that those little grains serve as "rollers"...makes it much easier this way. I hope I described that so it made sense...? > Where should the >pizza stone >be placed in the oven? I have mine on the lower rack to keep it out of the >way. It is big - 16" and heavy, so I don't want to have to move it all >the time. This is exactly where I put my stone, too. Since I have two ovens, fortunately I don't have to move mine all the time, either. > Will having the stone in the oven cause it to preheat (the >oven) more slowly? Generally I have found this to be true. I find that I need to preheat my oven for as much as 15-20 minutes extra in order to get my baking stone nice and hot. This is really important if you want that nice terrific crust on your bread (e.g., pizza). >12. Slashing the tops of loaves - Yikes! I am scared to death to do >this for >fear of killing the loaf! Should I use a straight edge sharp razor? Any >hints? I use a single-edged razor blade, but I see that King Arthur sells those tools that resemble what the French chefs use when they slash the baguettes before baking. A single-edged razor blade works better than a knife in my opinion, because the blade is much thinner. A knife blade tends to drag away at the dough and pulls it and makes it kind of ugly. A razor blade makes a nice clean slice through the dough which bakes beautifully. Before you use it, pick out exactly where you want that slice, though... >I have more questions and will develop more questions! But, I will stop >for now as not to overload everyone! Whew, my fingers are tired now.... I hope I've helped to provide some advice for you, but I also hope that others who might have other suggestions will share them. That's what this list is for...for us all to learn and have fun! Joan ------------------------------ From: "R.C. Sagnella" Date: Sat, 27 Jan 96 14:15:48 EST Subject: Excuse My Dust I see that there are a number of queries regarding bread machines. I'm awfully puzzled. We, my wife and I, have been making bread (we grind our own whole wheat) for many years and have done it, more or less, the old fashion way with a little help from our KitchenAid mixer, a work horse of a machine if ever there was one. We make anywhere from five to six loaves at a time. My question is, where is the advantage in using a bread machine? Certainly it's not in the time saved, because in either case you must prepare the dough; furthermore, it seems that you have to wait five hours and more to realize your efforts of one loaf of bread when you use a machine. In less time than that we have five delicious loaves ready. Bread making the old fashion way is fun and easy. Raise a little flour dust and try it. Regards, Ron zeno@voicenet.com ------------------------------ From: wmathews@falcon.liunet.edu Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 13:20:01 +22311408 (EST) Subject: Breadman Plus Hi, Just read Angela's piece. I too have a BM+ and it OVERBAKES and loaves are hard to jerk out of the pan. Also, the recipe booklet they provide mistakenly omits salt from the recipe for egg bread. I clean my pan with a Dobie since sometimes the residue holds tight. Is that a problem or indicative of a problem? I love the list--it's great reading. Keep your fingers in the flour--Walt ------------------------------ From: bzwax@tiac.net (Rich & Debbie) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 15:38:37 -0500 Subject: freezing dough Kim wrote: <> I don't know why this should be a problem. Perhaps it wont' work with some particular recipes, but if it works for you now, it should continue to I should think. Many commercial operations that don't particularly specialize in bread but want to provide "fresh baked" buy raw, once-risen/punched down, pre-shaped, frozen loaves by the case. They are defrosted at room temp and once they have risen on a baking pan sheet or in a bread pan, they are popped in the oven and baked. Customers usually dont' know that they aren't getting homemade bread, because it is fresh baked. Another commercial approach (which I can't see any reason not to do with yourat home if you want) is to buy "par-baked" breads, bagels and rolls. They are often purchased frozen. These are baked enough to cook the bread and kill the yeast but not browned or crisp. At the time they are served, they are taken directly from the freezer into a hot oven (400 or 450 deg) and crisped and browned. Again, the perception is of fresh-baked. Best-Debbie Bier Concord, MA ------------------------------ From: "R.C. Sagnella" Date: Sat, 27 Jan 96 14:40:44 EST Subject: Yeast >To: cmatthew@iadfw.net >From: "R.C. Sagnella" >Subject: To Rise Early or Late > >We purchase our yeast in two pound packs - Bread Star - for about two >dollars. You might try a Farmer's Market for this brand. (Yeast is sealed >in aluminum.) We place the unused portion is a large jar in the >refrigerator, where it keeps virtually indefinitely. (We never had a >problem with it.) > >As for the difference between fast and regular rising yeast, I don't think >there is a "real" difference. > >Best, > >Ron > ------------------------------ From: Steve and Marilyn Kerman Date: Sat, 27 Jan 96 13:18 PST Subject: Yeast I am new to the bb list and have been baking bread (the old fashioned way) for about 9 months. While I have made bread from only a few favorite recipes, I have noticed the recipes call for about the same amount of ingredients but vary from 1 - 4 tsps of yeast. All of the breads seem to achieve the same volume so I am confused by the wide variation in Yeast. Can anyone help with an explanation. TIA Steve ------------------------------ From: Darrell_Greenwood@mindlink.net (Darrell Greenwood) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 14:27:30 -0800 Subject: Re: advice needed Tue, 23 Jan 1996 13:04:41 -0500 (EST), Angela Fox wrote: > 2. Yeast - I have been using Fleischman's Gold Instant Yeast from King > Arthur. I get good results using exactly what is called for in all > recipes. Once I used Red Star regular yeast. I noticed it was very slow > to rise in comparison to the other loaves I have made with it. However, > I only tried it once so don't have much scientific evidence to say that > it was the yeast. The people at King Arthur told me not to decrease the > yeast in a recipe when using the Instant yeast. What are other people's > experiences with this instant yeast? Some cookbooks say that instant > yeast is double fast - but King Arthur says this one is not?????? I > guess I should try a couple loaves with Red Star regular again. I bake with three strains of yeast. Two sourdough and one quick yeast (Fermipan). Yeast is unlike most other ingredients... it is alive and it multiplies. Each strain of yeast has its own speed and characteristics. You may have to adapt the recipes to the yeast you use depending on your experience (i.e., increase or decrease the yeast or sugar). The strain, temperature, nutrient availability, time, all affect yeast concentration. If you are willing to wait any yeast will do the job. (Of course bread machines are not willing to wait unless they are programmable :-) > 4. What are some expert hints for finding a nice warm spot for rising of > dough? I have been using my oven warmed for exactly one minute on the > lowest temp - is this what others do? I do. Another way is an oven with the light turned on. Another way is a stryofoam cooler with a light bulb inside and a dimmer in series. (The last is popular with sourdough bread makers... check out Usenet newsgroup rec.food.sourdough if you haven't already.) > 5. All purpose flour - I totally understand the gluten thing. My > question is why do so many recipes (esp German's book The Bread Machine > Cookbook VI - Hand Shaped Breads From The Dough Cycle) call for all > purpose flour? Is this because they do not need to rise as much and this > is an okay sacrifice to have a more tender bread???????? Gluten content varies significantly with supplier, locale, year, country, even in flours with the same description. As a result all purpose and bread flours can overlap slightly in gluten content depending on the factors above. Some all purpose flours have adequate gluten for bread and for some bread styles contain the most appropriate amount. The all purpose I get makes an excellent bread as it is in the high range of gluten content for all purpose. As a result the gluten content of the bread flour here is, for some breads, too high. I understand that some parts of the southern US have much lower gluten in their all purpose flour as more of the purchasers want to make biscuits rather than bread. Try the flour. If you like bread from it go with that flour. If you don't, get another suppliers or add gluten. I keep a bag of all purpose and a bag of bread flour to hand and use them in varying proportions depending on the style of bread I am making. > Oh - also many of those recipes (BM Ckbk VI by German) call for Rapid or > quick yeast - why???? Slightly faster and probably best for a bread machine that is not programmable. > and the book does not tell (I don't think - or it was not clear to me) > how much to use if you use regular yeast - any > advice?? The book "Electric Bread" always gives the alternative which is > 1/2 as much rapid yeast as regular - but that does not seem to make sense > given the amount of rapid yeast called for in German's books. Any > clarification? The ingredient which is the most tolerant of measurement variability is yeast in my experience. This is due to its ability to multiply. You put in amount x. Later, depending on temperature, nutrient availability, activity, you have amount 2x in your dough. Yeast is a living organism and comes in tens of thousands of different strains and varieties. Learn the characteristics of the yeast you use and go with the amount you need. You can use an very small amount if you give it time to multiply. This is a sponge method of making bread that I am just trying out and it is producing raves from the family. 1/2 tsp of yeast, half your flour, all your liquid, your sugar. Mix for 5 minutes and reset the bread machine and let sit for a couple of hours (this is the sponge and the yeast are multiplying quite nicely at this point). Add the rest of the ingredients (in my case flour, 1 tsp salt (flavor, dough conditioner), 1 tbs oil (dough conditioner, anti-staling), 80mg vitamin C (dough conditioner)), restart the machine and process for dough. Put in bread pan, let rise and bake. Result, in my case, more flavor and a chewier texture. > 12. Slashing the tops of loaves - Yikes! I am scared to death to do > this for > fear of killing the loaf! Should I use a straight edge sharp razor? Any > hints? There are two reasons for slashing the tops of loaves as far as I can determine. Decorative or to cause the loaf to expand where you want it to expand rather than tearing. In either case you need a *very* sharp edge. I use a knife that is sharpened to a razor edge, cutting down about an eighth to a quarter inch. Check out my web page URL: for pointers to all kinds of interesting information and FAQs, recipes, tips, sources on sourdough bread. Cheers, Darrell - -- Darrell Greenwood, Vancouver, BC darrell_greenwood@mindlink.net My web homepage... http://mindlink.net/darrell_greenwood/ ------------------------------ From: Steve and Marilyn Kerman Date: Sat, 27 Jan 96 18:06 PST Subject: Clear Flour I have been baking Jewish Rye Bread for a few weeks using the recipe in "Secrets of a Jewish Baker" by George Greenstein. The results have been wonderful. The recipe calls for "Clear Flour or First Clear" sometimes called "common flour". This flour is allegedly the least refined of the bread flours. It is lower in gluten content and darker in color than other flours and is used primarily in rye breads. At the suggestion of the author I got some from a local bakery (even though the baker wasn't sure it was the right stuff). I really don't want to become a pain in the a** to the baker. No local (Portland, OR) stores carry the product. A local mill would sell me a 50# bag shipped from Seattle but I don't use THAT much. Does anyone have any idea on an alternative or a source for reasonable quantities. TIA Steve ------------------------------ From: jguevara@spin.com.mx (Jenka Guevara) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 22:35:00 -0600 Subject: Re: honey oat bread Debbie saw I had a miskake on my bread recipe, yes it has oatmeal, one cup, sorry about this The bread comes out delicious. Jenka >Hello: I was interested in the recipe you had sent to the bread list, but >found that even though it's called honey oat bread, it didn't have any oat >in it, and so assume it was an ommission. Can you clarify? > >thanks, >Debbie > >you wrote: >1 cup white flour >1 cup whole wheat flour >two BIG tablespoons honey >1 cup sour dough starter >2 teaspoons yeast >more than one cup water, as needed > > ********************************* Jenka Guevara American School Foundation Mexico City jguevara@spin.com.mx ------------------------------ From: mjoseph@en.com Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 21:38:25 +0000 Subject: Re: Bialys -- What's the Secret? > I've made bialys from four different recipes in cookbooks; all looked, > tasted, smelled wrong and had the wrong texture. Only one cookbook > author (Joan Nathan) had the onion filling right (bread crumbs are > mixed in with the onions). (The ones sold in bagel shops are almost > universally wrong; they're not just bagels with failed holes and > an onion filling.) > > OK. What's the secret? It appears to be a lost art. I've heard > special high gluten flour. All the above were straight doughs. > I suspect that the real, genuine item may be made with a sourdough > or with a poolish (starter). Anyone know and willing to tell? > > Mark Judman (Mark_Judman@colpal.com) > > Here's a recipe from "Secrets of a Jewish Baker" by George Greenstein. I used bread flour, which is essential and they came out very authentic, quite different from a bagel. BIALYS 2 cups warm water 3 pkg. active dry yeast 4 ts sugar 3 ts salt 6 to 6 1/2 cups bread flour Flour for dusting (preferably rye flour for added flavor) Oil for greasing bowl TOPPING 3 tb minced onion 2 ts poppy seeds (optional) 1 ts vegetable oil Pinch of salt Combine topping ingredients and set aside. In a large bowl sprinkle yeast over the warm water to soften; stir to dissolve. Add the sugar, 6 cups of flour, and salt. Mix thoroughly until dough forms up and comes away from the sides of the bowl. Turn out the dough onto a floured worksurface and knead, adding small amounts of flour as needed, for 10 to 12 minutes. Shape the dough into a ball; place in a large oiled bowl and turn to coat. Cover and allow to rise 30 minutes. Press out all of the air with your fingers and allow to rise until doubled in size (20-30 minutes). Punch down the dough, divide into thirds, roll out under your palms into ropes, and cut each rope in 6 equal pieces. Roll into balls. Cover and allow the dough to rest for 10 minutes. Rollout each ball into a 3 1/2 inch circle. If the dough becomes too stiff or shrinks back, allow it to rest and go on to the next piece. Evenly space the circles on 2 floured or cornmeal dusted baking pans. Cover with flour rubbed cloths and allow to rise until puffy. Make an indentation from the center outward, leaving a 1-inch rim. A shot glass with a 1" bottom also works well. Press with a circular motion. Dribble bit of the reserved topping into the hole. Dust lightly with reserved flour. Cover with cloths and allow to proof until puffed up. Bake without steam in a preheated 450 deg F oven for 15-20 minutes. Make 18 bialys. ------------------------------ From: Chuck Anderson Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 22:33:00 -0800 Subject: Re: Herbs & Flavor (or Lack Therof) >Have noticed many times when I use herbs in a bread machine recipe, the >final result is less than satisfactory. Yesterday, I was very disappointed >when I made a dill bread from Bread Machine Magic - using lots of dill and >lots of dried onion. It smelled great and all that, but when I took a >taste, there was little, if any, of either the dill or the onion. > >My herbs/spices are not old - and work fine for regular cooking. What >causes this in the bread machine? Has anyone else had this problem? > >Thanks for any help! > >Jeanne I'm not sure what to do about the dill taste, you could try soaking it in the water you're going to use for the bread and add the whole mix in. This sometimes brings out the flavor in some spices. But the onion problem can be solved by using fresh onions, not dried onions. To me, dried onions have the flavor dried out of them also. Hope this helps.------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Anderson chester@pclink.com chucka@mpls.mort.com If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. - Eldridge Cleaver - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Marta Martin Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 05:51:45 -0500 Subject: Freezing bread dough Hi All, Kim Koluch asked about freezing bread dough. She said she had heard it shouldn't be done. I hadn't heard that but HAD been told that freezing slows down the yeast and so, if in fact, you are going to freeze the dough you should add a little extra yeast so that the bread still rises properly when thawed. However, Kim, if you aren't having any problems then I wouldn't worry about it! I would also be interested in hearing from anyone who has the Betty Crocker Make It Easy Machine such as I do. I am sort of going through a bad spell like Harriet described in her letter in this digest.....dense loaves, short and stumpy. Maybe my machine will make the instant miraculous recovery that hers did, too. Thanks! Marta ============================================================================ Marta Martin-(marta@citynet.net) WELCOME TO THE BLAST FURNACE--FORGE THE FIFTH! As seen on a Pittsburgh Steeler T-shirt. GO STEELERS!!!!!!!!!!!!! Inside me there is a thin woman dying to get out. I ate her for lunch. Hallmark Cards "People will say, 'You know, we share the same disease,' and then thank me for what I've done...I often wonder which disease it is they're talking about--alcoholism or breast cancer or arthritis." Former First Lady Betty Ford I can barf like a dog. Toren, 3 years old Shake your hips and hope for the best. Camille, age 9 ============================================================================= ------------------------------ End of bread-bakers-digest V6 #63 ********************************* bread-bakers-digest Sunday, 4 February 1996 Volume 06 : Number 064 Today's Subjects: responses Re: advice needed from the experts here! Re: Cuisinart Bread Recipes Hard Bread after 1 hour Flour Weights Req: Honey French Bread Irwin Franzel email problems Newcomer with a question RE: bread-bakers-digest V6 #62 Re: problems SOUERDOUGH-ONION STARTER Recipe: Port & Blue Cheese Bread--BREAD MACHINE (fwd) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LoisCon@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 17:31:06 -0500 Subject: responses Matt Goike asked how he can get a lighter whole grain bread. Matt you should use Vital Wheat Gluten, not gluten flour. Add about 1 tbs. per cup of flour. You can also try using granular lecithin with the gluten. Another suggestion is to use 1 teaspoon lemon juice or vinegar in your bread if the water is hard. Lastly, try a higher percentage of whole wheat flour. Diane Butts asked if you can put pizza dough into oiled Ziplocks.You can do that and keep it in the refrigerator for 3 or 4 days. Bring to room temp and roll out. Georgina Hansen asked for recipes using spelt. Here are some wheat free sources for you Georgina. Easy Breadmaking for Special Diets, by Nicolette Dumke Adapt Books (Barnes and Noble also) 1877 Polk Ave. Louisville, Colorado 80027 303-666-8253 "The Gluten-Free Gourmet" by Betty Hagman. It is published by Henry Holt. The ISBN for your bookstore is 0-8050-1835-2. She has written a second book, "More from the Gluten-Free Gourmet" by the same publisher. Another resource, is "Going Against the Grain", by Phyllis Potts. Publisher is Central Point Publishing and ISBN is 0-9630479-0-6. Mark Stanley asked for companies that sell flour via mail. (besides King Arthur) Bob's Red Mill 1-800-553-2258. Also Walnut Acres 1-800-433-3998. CMatthew asked about yeast in bulk. Red Star has a bulk instant yeast at Sam's Club. It comes in 1 pound packages or you can order directly from Red Star. 1-800-445-4746. You can store the yeast in the freezer. By the way, the instant yeast is a different strain of yeast. It's faster acting but has a shorter life!! Ellen Brakes asked about reducing the sugar in her recipes. Ellen you can look for recipes with less sweetener..french breads for example use very little. Try reducing the suger in your recipes but also reduce the salt. Another idea is to use barley malt flour (diastatic malt) in place of sugar. We have a whole section on it in our book The Bread Machine Magic Book of Helpful Hints..but to summarize, start by adding 1/4 teaspoon at a time. Increase each time by 1/4 teaspoon until you notice your dough developing gummy spots, then cut back the quantity. KKoluch asked about the shelf life of Better for Bread Flour. It's a 15 month shelf life. Freezing is OK Don't freeze for more than 1 month. Angela Fox asked a few questions. Here are some answers Angela. In using unsweetened applesauce, you can use it and reduce the liquid by the amount of applesauce used. The applesauce can be frozen in 1 Tablespoon amounts in ice cube trays for handy use. Instant yeast is fast acting short lived...and not good for long risings or multiple risings such as French, Italian or sourdough breads. In using oats in a bread, it helps to add the oats first and then the liquid. The oats will start absorbing the liquid right away and that will make it easier to judge the dough ball as it's kneading. We like the taste and texture of all-purpose flour and use it when we can, particularly in dough recipes. Red Star recommends using 1/2 teaspoon instant yeast per cup of flour. 1 cup all-purpose flour= 4.59 ounces 1 cup bread flour= 4.76 ounces 1 cup whole wheat flour = 4.51 ounces These figures are from the people at Gold Medal flour. To slash breads before rising, use a very sharp knife held at an angle almost parallel to the counter. We have seen special cutters in kitchen catalogues. Here is our pita recipe. It has very little oil and is fun to make. PEPPY'S PITA BREAD 1 1/2 POUND 1 1/8 cups water 3 cups all-purpose flour 1 teaspoon salt 1 tablespoon oil 1 1/2 teaspoons sugar 1 1/2 teaspoons Red Star active dry yeast 1 POUND 3/4 cup water 2 cups all-purpose flour 1 teaspoon salt 2 teaspoons oil 1 teaspoon sugar 1 1/2 teaspoons Red Star active dry yeast Place all ingredients in bread pan. Select dough setting. Press start. When dough has risen long enough, machine will beep. Turn dough onto a lightly floured countertop or cutting board. Gently roll and stretch dough into a 12 inch rope. FOR 1 1/2 POUND-With a sharp knife, divide dough into 8 pieces FOR 1 POUND DOUGH-With a sharp knife, divide dough into 6 pieces Roll each piece into a smooth ball. With a rolling pin, roll each ball into a 6 or inch circle. Set aside on a lightly floured countertop; Cover with a towel. Let pitas rise about 30 minutes until slightly puffy. Position oven rack in middle of oven;preheat to 500 degrees. Place 2 to 3 pitas on a wire cake rack. Place cake rack directly on oven rack; bake pitas 4 to 5 minutes until puffed and tops begin to brown Remove from oven and immediately place pitas in a sealed brown Paper bag or cover them with a damp towel until soft. Once the pitas are softened, either cut in half or split open the top edge for half or whole pitas. They can be stored in a plastic bag in the refrigerator for several days or in the freezer for 1 or 2 months. 1 1/2 POUND YIELDS 8 PITAS 1 POUND YIELDS 6 PITAS HINTS: Don't give up the first time if not perfect. Here are tips: 1. The pitas puff up during baking, so avoid using too much flour while rolling them out. Keep unrolled balls covered to avoid them drying out. 2. Those that don't puff up perfectly during baking were probably torn or creased in handling, so handle with care while rolling and transferring from counter to cake rack. 3. Avoid overbaking, they will turn crisp and brittle. Bread Machine Magic by Linda Rehberg and Lois Conway St. Martin's Press. Re pizza problems, I like to heat a pizza stone in my oven at 500x for 1 hour. I have a non-stick pizza pan which has holes in it. I brush olive oil on this pan, put my crust on it, and set it on the the stone. I prebake that for 3-4 minutes. Then I quickly put on toppings and it all goes back into the oven. Email me for my sauce recipe. I gave up on my peel a while ago after I found that this method gave me the kind of pizza crust I wanted with much less work and worry. Ellen Brakes wanted to know why her recipe wasn't working. Just looking at the recipe, Ellen, it seems that there is not enough bread flour. Try reducing the oats and replacing it with bread flour. If you need more information, please contact me at LoisCon@AOL.com. Thank you. Lois Conway and Linda Rehberg co-authors of Bread Machine Magic and The Bread Machine Magic Book of Helpful Hints. ------------------------------ From: Mark_Judman@colpal.com Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 13:10:16 EST Subject: Re: advice needed from the experts here! Angie, I don't have a bread machine. The following selective answers are based on my perspective from making breads strictly by-hand. 1. Using minced prunes or baby-food prunes instead of oil in bread. I haven't done it but it sounds unappetizing to me unless one wants prune-flavored breads. It may be great as a fat substitute in chocolate cake, but for me, for bread, no way! But really, there are many wonderful breads, e.g., classic French bread and sourdough rye that are made without oil, etc. Why not just stick to those? 10. Bannetons. I've never used the real thing, that is, straw baskets that leave their pattern on the bread. How does one clean the things? I use mock-bannetons: well-floured paper towels placed inside metal mixing bowls. Cost? Practically nothing. It produces a really neat rustic look to the loaves with flour on the surface. When it's time to bake, I just invert the mock-bannetons onto my baking stone in the oven (hot and messy) or better yet, onto my floured peel. And no, it won't kill the loaves unless you specifically then punch them down or drop them on the floor or something. 12. Slashing the tops. I'd be more afraid of slashing myself. Use a good sharp knife if you've got one or a box-cutter/utility knife. You can also buy real cheaply (in hardware/paint stores) single-edged razor blades. Don't be scared to death of killing the loaf. You won't collapse it. Don't be so nervous. Bread seems to be able to take a fair amount of abuse and come out just fine. I do it as a mental health activity. If you want something to worry about try switching to baking pastries. Hope this helps, Mark Judman (Mark_Judman@colpal.com) ------------------------------ From: nancy@pacificnet.net Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 19:22:23 -0800 Subject: Re: Cuisinart Bread Recipes Does anyone have any food processor bread recipes? I have a DLC-7 Cuisinart with an 8 cup flour capacity. Or can anyone recommend some good bread books specific to this topic? Thanks! Nancy ------------------------------ From: wenshiao@singnet.com.sg (Wendy Shiao AC) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 01:05:49 -0800 Subject: Hard Bread after 1 hour Hi Reggie, Thank you very much for sending me a note personally, and for the accompanying batch of recipes. I tried that recips which I sent to you, using the manual method. I have no bread machine. It turned out quit OK for someone of my standard that it looked and tasted like bread. But after an hour, it was so hard. That is what normally happens to my home-baked breads so far. Wonder why. I went thro my diskette, and here are more recipes. Date: Wed, 19 Jan 94 11:43:00 CST From: "Pete Brauer 312/915-6157" <$W$PR42@LUCCPUA.BITNET> Great FF Baguette 2 pkg. dry yeast (quick rise) 3 c. whole wheat flour 1/2 tbsp. sugar 1 c. unbleached white flour 1/3 c. warm water Corn meal 1 tsp salt (more or less, this is optional and does flavor the bread) 1 c. water Melt the yeast, sugar, 1/3 c. warm water in a bowl and set aside. Mix the flours, salt, in a bowl, add the yeast mix, and then the water. Mix the dough until smooth, about 5 mins. Let rise covered with a damp cloth for one hour. Punch down, and divide into two or four loaves, then slice tops about 2 inch across, 1/4 inch deep. Place in cold oven set to 350 for one hour. For crustier bread, place a pan of water on the bottom of the stove for 1st 30 minutes, then remove. Also, you can brush the loaves with a mixture of egg-white and 1/2 c. water after 50 mins. kwvegan vegan ********************************** Date: Wed, 30 Mar 94 09:08:52 PST From: vmh@IntelliCorp.COM References - ---------- I am using a several sources of information: "Berner Kochbuch", 1961. This is the cookbook every little girl and boy who took the cooking classes received in my school. "Kleine Backschule Brot" by Betty Bossi. Betty Bossi is the Swiss housewife's steady companion with many cookbooks. This is just one of them. Instructions on making bread from my best friend Ruth whose father is a well-know baker in the region where I grew up. My own humble experiences, including all the times when my bread turned out wrong. Measurements - ------------ Since these are Swiss recipes, measurements are metric. Here are approximate conversion tables. (If I have time, I'll include American measurements. Myself, I got me a metric scale.) 1 l = 1 quart 1 dl = 1/10 of a quart or a little less than 1/2 cup 2.5 dl = 1 cup 20g is 4/5 of an ounce. 1 ounce is about 27 grams. 1 Swiss pound is 500 grams or 1.1 American pounds. Celsius to Farenheit as a rule of thumb for cooking: Celsius * 2 + 30 = Farenheit. This is accurate enough for baking and does not require mathematical acrobatics. Note, that especially with bread, most measurements are relative. Play with the amounts until they work for you. When I want to make quick bread, I measure about 2 pounds of flour, dump in some water, salt, and the yeast, all by eye, and the result is usually just fine. Temperature - ----------- "Middle Heat" is about 400F; "Low Heat" is about 250F; but you have to experiment. The terms are intentionally fuzzy since different ovens bake differently, and the good baker is supposed to find out by experience what works for their kitchen. Yeast and Baking Powder - ----------------------- 20 grams of fresh yeast is equivalent to 7 grams of dry yeast. That is the average amount of yeast needed per 500g (5.1 pounds) of flour. Amounts can vary, depending on whether you like your bread yeasty, and how much time you have to let it raise. But more on that later. I usually guess at about a teaspoon of dry yeast per pound of flour. (In Europe you can buy yeast in little 7g packages, pre-measured. It is so common that most recipes ask for n packages of dry yeast. I haven't seen that here.) Sometimes, when I am really lazy, or when I want a bread that tastes differently, I use baking powder instead of yeast. If your bread comes out tasting too yeasty, use less yeast and let raise longer. But more on yeast later. Salt - ---- Be generous. Most non-professionally made breads are bland, because there is not enough salt in them. I have seen Ruth's father add salt, and it is by the handfull, and the bread never turns out too salty. Unless you are on a salt-restricted diet for medical reasons, this is not the place to skimp on salt! Salvaging and Trouble Shooting - ------------------------------ Ruth just told me a few weeks ago that the most common cause for bread to turn out too heavy is that the dough is TOO DRY! Make sure the dough is is still somewhat sticky when you make the loafs. If your bread turns out totally heavy, toast it dark to eat it. Or use it in soup. Or put lots of jam on and eat it with your eyes closed. Or bake it again. It won't raise, but it will dry out. Or feed to your pets, they'll love it. Use it for stuffing. Kneading, the Secret Ingredient - ------------------------------- Kneading has two purposes: to thoroughly mix all the ingredients, and to push air into the bread. When you are kneading, harass, torture, and work that dough. Fold it over to trap air. For one kilogram of flour (2.2 pounds), you should vigorously knead your bread for 20 (twenty!) minutes. If you don't break out into a sweat, you are not working hard enough. My friend Ruth says, it is all in the kneading; that you should torture the poor bread dough until you feel sorry for it and yourself. Get your hands in there, and don't be afraid to get all full of dough. It's therapeutical. :-) I knead bread first in the large bowl, then take it out onto a dry, clean surface. Sprinkle the surface and your hands with flour whenever things get too sticky, but not too much, lest the dough become too dry. To find out how much air you have in your dough, cut it with a knife and examine the the split. The more and the larger the air bubbles you see, the better. When is My Bread Baked ? - ------------------------ I know of three ways of checking, whether your bread is ready: 1) Baking time based on experience. 2) Stick an needle in. If any dough sticks to the needle when you pull it out, the bread is still wet inside. That is a knittin needle. I believe some people use a straw here. 3) Knock on the bottom of the bread. If it sounds really hollow, then the bread is done. This is the best method, but it takes some practice to find out what "hollow" means. ... and Finally - --------------- Making bread depends on a lot of factors. Experiment with the information you get until you find out what works for you. Making bread is not a science. Bakers apprentice for 4 years to get their certificate! These instructions are not infallible. Use at your own risk. And expect to eat a lot of almost good bread before finding the perfect combination. Basic Recipe from Berner Kochbuch - --------------------------------- To give you something to play with until the next installent, try this. This is the most basic bread recipe. Most of the time I use this and change it as I please. 1 kg white flour (2.2 pounds) 25 g fresh yeast (1 ounce, or 1/3 ounce dry yeast) 20 g salt (2/3 ounce) 6 dl water (2 2/5 cups) Put flour into large bowl. Stir yeast with warm water in small bowl. (If the water is cold, the yeast will not grow. If the water is too hot, the yeast will die.). Add salt. Mix with flour and KNEAD! Let raise until size doubles. Make two loafs and place on cookie sheet. Let raise again briefly. Bake at middle heat in preheated oven. Baking time is 40 to 70 minutes. kwvegan vegan Wendy ------------------------------ From: ellen@brakes.elekta.com Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 15:32:39 -0400 Subject: Flour Weights For all the experts on this list, Please give us your recommendations on how much one cup of flour should weigh for bread baking! I know that by weighing flour, as opposed to measuring it, that I can achieve more consistent results in my bread machine. It is also easier to weigh flour than it is to "sprinkle" the flour into a cup. My dilemna is that I have seen widely varying weights for one cup of flour. I also know that all flours do not weigh the same, ie, one cup of bread flour does not weigh the same as one cup of rye. Weight of flour PER CUP: 4 3/8 ounces or 125 grams all-purpose flour (USDA) 4 5/8 ounces or 130 grams all-purpose flour (Gold Medal) 4 1/4 ounces or 120 grams whole wheat flour (USDA) 4 1/2 ounces or 128 grams whole wheat flour (Gold Medal) 4 1/2 ounces or 127 grams bread flour (USDA) 4 3/4 ounces or 135 grams bread flour (Gold Medal) 3 5/8 ounces or 102 grams rye flour (USDA) King Arthur says ALL flour types weigh 4 oz (113 grams) per cup. This variance ranges from as little as one tablespoon up to 8 tablespoons per cup of flour! Now, that is a lot of difference! In my own weighing, I have found that one cup of flour for me is usually within the range of the USDA and Gold Medal numbers, but I can make a cup weigh almost anything I want. :-) I cannot believe the King Arthur number of only 4 ounces per cup of flour. I am finding that I typically need to reduce the water in my bread by 1-2 tablespoons using the heavier cups of flour. If I used the KA 4 oz., I'd have mud, not dough. And, in the case of a rye loaf, it would be much too dry. So, HELP PLEASE!! What do all you specialists recommend we use as the best weight per cup of flour? Thanks very much! - -- Ellen C. ellen@brakes.elekta.com ------------------------------ From: ellen@brakes.elekta.com Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 10:51:38 -0400 Subject: Req: Honey French Bread I am looking for a good honey french bread, and would really appreciate your recipes! I believe that Donna German has one in one of her cookbooks, but I don't have it and have not been able to find it in the local bookstores. Thanks for your help! - -- Ellen C. ellen@brakes.elekta.com ------------------------------ From: jkolo@ihats1.ih.att.com (Jeffrey A Kolodziej) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 96 07:28:01 CST Subject: Irwin Franzel email problems FYI: I recently sent some email to Irwin Franzel requesting a copy of his catalog that I saw offered in a previous digest. I waited a few days, and when the catalog never arrived, I gave Irwin a call. When Irwin called back, he explained that he had received my email, but has been having problems sending email. Irwin hopes to get the problems corrected in a few days. Soooo, if you have sent Irwin any email recently (I sent mine on 1/30/96 about 12:00 PM CST), he probably has received it, but has not been able to respond. If you want to phone Irwin, call him at (800) 641-9093. Regards, Jeff Kolodziej ------------------------------ From: Jerry D Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 21:12:29 -1000 (HST) Subject: Newcomer with a question Aloha. I'm brand-new to the list and not even brand new (as yet) to bread baking. I want to learn the manual method. Have NEVER baked bread before in my life and want suggestions as to a full-on book on the subject....the BEST one any or all of you have seen. Cost is no object. I simply want the most thorough text in print. Out here in the middle of the Pacific, where the price of bread from the bakeries is now over $3.00 per loaf, I think it is high time that I learned how to do it myself! :) mahalo for your suggestions. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "The foolish man seeks happiness in the distance. The wise man grows it under his feet." - James Oppenheim - - - - - - Kele Farms of Hawai'i - Box 1204 - Pahoa HI 96778-1204 808-982-7977 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ From: Gerald Joe Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 00:39:43 -0800 Subject: RE: bread-bakers-digest V6 #62 According to the Consumer Reports December 1995 (page 799-801), the best bread machine is a Regal Kitchen Pro K6743. The Zojirushi is 8th on the rankings. I bought one of the smaller Regal models for $100 Canadian (about US$73) and it works well. Anyway heres a web location with a recipe of the month: http://www.stannet.com/stannet/bread/recipes.html Jan. 1996 - Mixed Fruit Bread (Makes 1-1/2 lb. loaf) Do not use timer with this recipe. .1-1/3 cups water .2 tablespoons butter or margarine, softened .3-1/2 cups bread flour .3 tablespoons sugar .2 tablespoons dry milk .2 teaspoons salt .2 packages active dry yeast or 2-1/2 tsp bread machine yeast .1-1/4 cups mixed dried fruit .1/2 cup chopped nuts Note #1: Add the fruit and nuts 15 minutes after you press the START button. Note #2: Moisture in dried fruit varies, so 10 to 15 minutes after adding the fruit, check mixture. If too dry, add 1 or 2 tablespoons water. If too wet, add additional flour. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ .Dec. 1995 - Carrot Bread (Makes 1 1/2 lb. loaf) .1 cup water .2/3 cups grated carrots .2 tablespoons butter or margarine .3 cups bread flour .3 tablespoons packed brown sugar .2 tablespoons dry milk .1-1/2 teaspoons salt .1 teaspoon ground cinnamon .1 package dry yeast or 1-3/4 bread machine yeast Somewhere there should be a FAQ or archive of all the recipes and tips. If anyone finds one, please post. ------------------------------ From: "J. R. Link" Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 09:05:20 PST Subject: Re: problems I have had problems making some breads that seem to flop. I have made pumpkin bread, a date nut bread and these breads rise great even twice and in the oven when cooking the deflate and sink. They seem to be too moist of a dough will this cause the problem. The pumkin was made with fresh not canned pumkin. I baked at 375 for 45 minutes for a standard size loaf. Both were yeast breads and in the recipee they had 2 tsps of yeast, some salt and some sugar. Any ideas?? - --------------- Jackie Link Fremont,Ca. - --------------- ------------------------------ From: CHEFLZ@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 11:36:14 -0500 Subject: SOUERDOUGH-ONION STARTER QUESTIONS FROM THE LAST POSTING, REGARDING PUTTING ONIONS IN A STARTER: HOW MUCH ONION IN STARTER? FRESH, OR DEHYDRATED ONION? ------------------------------ From: Katie E Green Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 18:01:42 -0800 Subject: Recipe: Port & Blue Cheese Bread--BREAD MACHINE (fwd) Naturally, I had to send this on to you. Back in the swing Reggie. Warmest hugs. Katie ****************************************************************** I am sorry, I don't have the name of the gentleman who requested a port bread. I evidently hid the request...and I ran across this clipping I had saved last night. This has a couple of substitutions available: The applesauce in the recipe is NOT a low fat substitute. However you may eliminate it and substitute butter, margarine, or baby food plums-- or even fresh plum or pear puree. The applesauce or plums impart a nice highlight to the flavor. I only made the bread once, and used pureed Japanese Satsuma plums in the recipe, as I have trees in my yard. Bread texture should not be affected by which ever you choose to use. I also loaded up on the port...to almost 1/4 cup. But I am a port nut. The recipe is for the bread machine. In manual adaptation, be prepared to add up to 1 1/2 cups of additional flour. I would start with the amount called for and increase flour in 1/4 cup increments, til proper dough texture is achieved during kneading... Also, you may omit the blue cheese with no ill side affects and make this a TRUE PORT BREAD. The sharper the blue cheese--the stronger the flavor of the bread. Loaf appearance will vary with the brand of cheese you use. This is a medium height loaf...dense. I found this to be a nice recipe. It stated it made great croutons...and it did! Pine nuts might also be an option to play with. **You need not use an expensive port...simply one with a good flavor. Just a thought...slice thin for toast points for cheese or pate during wine tasting....*:) Or ham sandwiches, tailgate style. Recommended to serve warm, steamed with steak bbq. For the Bread Machine: *note conversion for rapid rise cycle or regular (dry active yeast) bake cycles. PORT & BLUE CHEESE BREAD 1 lb. loaf 1.5 lb. loaf 2/3 cup water 1 cup 2 cups white Bread Flour 3 cups 1 TBS sugar 2 TBS 1 tsp salt 1.5 tsp 2 tsp Butter 1 TBS 2 TBS Port Ruby Red Wine 1/4 cup 1/4 cup Blue Cheese, crumbled 1/3 cup 1/4 cup walnuts, coarse chopped 1/3 cup 2 1/2 TBS applesauce 1/4 cup 3/4 tsp yeast--RAPID rise 1 tsp --OR-- 1 1/2 tsp yeast--active dry 2 tsp Load machine according to manufacturer's recommendations. ------------------------------ End of bread-bakers-digest V6 #64 ********************************* bread-bakers-digest Sunday, 4 February 1996 Volume 06 : Number 065 Today's Subjects: yeast from King Arthur (and other sources) Re: #61 Angie Fox questions Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #61 Re:$250 Zo bagels Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #61 Irwin's comments Where to buy yeast Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #62 Apple Oatmeal bread thanks for pizza dough answers re: ??sources for bulk rapid-rise yeast Good Crust WANTED: Breakfast bread RE: bread-bakers-digest V6 #60 applesauce cake recipe for pita bread? Storing bread Bread Storage INFO RE BAGUETTES (New Orleans style) Conversion of bread machine recipes La Brea Bakery recipes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cmathew@iadfw.net (Craig & Joan Mathew) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 05:30:44 -0600 (CST) Subject: yeast from King Arthur (and other sources) >From: emily@goblin.com (Emily Woudenberg) >Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 20:56:54 -0700 >Subject: the elusive flavors of sourdough starters > > I buy my dried yeast in bulk from the KIng Arthur catalog. They have a >special one formulated not only for bread-makers, but for sourdough breads >in particular. But I really can't tell the difference between this one and >the regular bread-machine dried yeast that they sell. >By the way, thanks for all the great recipes and cook-book recommendations. >- --Emily Woudenberg Hello all, I recently posted a question asking about sources for bulk yeast. I did find the ones listed in the King Arthur catalog, but I also called the folks at Fleischmann's since I like their RapidRise product so much. The very nice gentleman on the phone told me that yeast labelled "for bread machines" is essentially the same as the rapid-rise product. I found this quite interesting, since I don't have a bread machine and had also wondered how this yeast was different from anything else. So...for those of you searching for rapid-rise types of yeast, the bread machine yeast will work just as well, apparently. Finally, I'd like to hear more from folks who have used the bulk yeast from King Arthur. Someone recently posted me a note saying that different yeasts yield different flavors in the bread, and this seems reasonable based on what I know about sourdough, for instance. I'd like to hear from folks specifically about how the King Arthur yeast products perform and if they yield any particular flavor? I want to purchase some of their stuff, but don't know which one to get. Thanks very much, Joan ------------------------------ From: ClayCooker@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 09:58:10 -0500 Subject: Re: #61 Angie Fox questions - -----Programmable machine?....yes the Zojirushi S 15 is programmable. - -----Substitute for Butter/oil etc?....I just use applesauce. It's quick, easy and I buy the little tiny packages made up for school lunches so I don't have to open a huge jar every time I need a Tablespoon or so. I use the same amount of applesauce as oil/butter called for in a recipe. - ----- preferred yeast?...I prefer Red Star Active Dry Yeast which I buy in bulk from a natural food store for $2.50 a pound., but many of my friends prefer the Red Star Instant found at wholesale warehouse type stores such as Sam's. I believe it comes in a 2# (double pkg.). I rarely use the Rapid Cycle so just find the Active Dry Yeast fine for me. - -----warm spot for dough? ....I usually just put the dough into my electric oven with the light on... Seems to be about the right temperature as is. When I teach classes and don't have any idea what ovens I will be using, I bring along my electric heating pad. I set it on low or medium and put the dough which is covered on the heating pad to raise. Another place...don't laugh.... is when I'm using a clay cooker. I put the dough in the cooker, put hot water in my sink, and "float" the dough filled clay cooker (covered with non stick paper and plastic wrap so it doesn't dry out) into the sink. Doesn't take long to have the dough rise. Set it in very gently.........so it doesn't sink!!! Yes, it works... I do it all the time. - ---why all-purpose flour in books? ...You have to be really careful with books (my opinion) as some authors only use King Arthur all-purpose which is very HIGH in gluten and doesn't compare to store-bought all-purpose. End result can be very poor if YOU are using the store-bought all purpose and a recipe written by an author who uses King Arthur all-purpose. To be sure, read the first section of the bread machine cookbook to get to know your author's preferences? Some recipes call for all-purpose because the end result tastes better using it or the bread will rise TOO high if you use only bread flour. I have some recipes that take both all-purpose and bread flour to control the rise. One recipe I use almost daily (because it is my husband's very favorite) is found in Bread Machine Magic book of Helpful Hints and is called French Extraordinaire. It calls for only All-Purpose flour. (grocery store-brand qualilty is fine) It tastes like real European French bread. - -----Great books? Well if I had to buy only ONE book and I have well over 40 or 50, I would again purchase a little inexpensive one that I mentioned earlier called Bread Machine Magic Book of Helpful Hints by Lois Conway and Linda Rehberg. It covers so much: a comparison of brands of abms (which was another of your questions), converting your old bread-by-hand recipes, hints, extra good recipes, of course but more than that, it is such a valuable book for any little problem that comes up especially for the new bread maker . I suggested to one manufacturer that if they put a BBMHH book in every bread machine they sold, they would have a lot less returns, and many more happy customers. Don't know if they listened to me or not? - -----make a Banneton at home? ...You can use a basket and a piece of linen cloth, cut/sewed to fit.. well rubbed with flour. I purchased an Oval Coiled Brot Form which makes the little circular flour marks on the top of European loaves from my local European Baker. It was about 1/3 less than if I had ordered it through a catalog. Maybe you might find a baker nearby who would be willing to sell you one of his surplus supply? - -----Slash the top of the loaf? Yikes! I'm afraid too, but I've found if I have really BEATEN up my dough before putting it into a shape to rise, it takes the slashing very will without deflating. I slash at an angle rather than straight down. If you want to spend MONEY, King Arthur catalog 1-800-827-6836 sells a "Lame" which is a very sharp blade/with a handle for making the cut. I just use a sharp (new) razor blade. I know there are more questions, but hope this helps you a bit? Bev in Mn ------------------------------ From: BrawnyBear@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 10:40:32 -0500 Subject: Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #61 I have been reading this digest for a couple of weeks now. It appears that most of the contributors and using a machine. Does anyone here still make bread by hand?? ------------------------------ From: ClayCooker@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 09:58:05 -0500 Subject: Re:$250 Zo This answer is for Angela Fox to wondered where she could order a Zo for $250? She can e-mail Irwin Franzel at CPXD31A@Prodigy.com . Just a quick note to Angela: You don't have to be afraid of ordering a product from Irwin by mail..... He is a Dear Gentleman who stands behind his products and will help you in any way he can. Bev in Mn ------------------------------ From: Angela Fox Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 12:45:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: bagels My current driving questions concern the amount of flour called for in recipes and right now it is bagel recipes. First of all I should say that I have become very scientific and precise when it comes to measuring flour. I aerate the flour - fluff it around with a spoon in the large container I store it in and then carefully sprinkle it with a spoon into my measuring cup till overflowing and then without tapping I level it with a straight edge. My cups of flour weigh about 4.5 ounces (all purpose, white whole wheat, and fresh ground whole wheat). This matches the figures that Gold Medal flour company shared with the authors of Bread Machine Magic Book of Helpful Hints (I think - the book is not in front of me now and I am going by memory). Some store bought (bitter btw) whole wheat flours have weighed 4.75 - 5 ounces per cup. But almost all flours I study weigh approx 4.5 ounces per cup. I generally use King Arthur flours, but also have weighed Arrowhead Mills flours and get the same results. I will only try no fat added recipes for bagels or make adjustments for fat called for. But there are many no fat added bagel recipes everywhere. I have what seems to be a wonderful book called "The Best Bagels Are Made At Home" by Dona Z. Meilach and many other bread machine cookbooks with bagel recipes. My first reaction was that the bagel cookbook was surely the bible on bagel recipes and information and since the flour to liquid ratios in this book were so different I started with a recipe from the bagel cookbook. She clearly states that these recipes are great for bread machines and gives a whole section on using your bread machine to make the dough. I will share the first one I tried here. My first inclination was that wow - that seems like it will produce a very dry stiff dough, but since Meilach says that bagel dough should be *stiff* I started with her measurements. Will some experienced bakers just look at this recipe and see if their first impression is the same as mine. Btw - almost all Meilach's small recipes are based on 3/4 C liquid to 2 3/4 C flour - which in my opinion could never work - no matter how you prepared the dough - machine, mixer, food processor or by hand! Orange Cranberry Bagels (pg 101) (don't follow this recipe without water in hand) This recipe has a total of 3/4 c. liquid as written. 1/4 c. water 1/2 c. orange juice 1.5 T grated orange peel 1 T brown sugar or molasses 3/4 t. salt 2 3/4 C bread flour (see my note above for how well I measure flour) 1.5 t. active dry yeast I have a Breadman Plus machine. After 11 minutes of kneading, the dough was so stiff the machine almost quit working and sounded very overworked (never had this problem with any recipe before). I added 1 T water, which was not enough and continued until I had added 3 T additional water total. The dough was still very stiff, but as this was my first experience with bagels I did not add anymore water. The resulting dough was so dry that it was almost separating in layers as I was trying to form bagels. Another thing was that Meilach suggests a second 20 minute rise after the bagels are formed. This produced a very airy light non-bagel like bagel when I applied it to the cinnamon raisin bagels below. Next attempt: I was studying recipes in Donna Rathmell German's book "The Bread Machine Cookbook VI" I noticed that her recipes seemed much more liquid friendly and so tried this recipe: Cinnamon Raisin Bagels (pg 91) (don't try this recipe without flour in hand) 1 1/4 C water 2 T sugar 1/2 t salt 1 t cinnamon 3 C all purpose flour 2 t yeast 1/3 C raisins added at the end of kneading Well, disappointingly this recipe was soooo wet that I ended up having to add an additional 7 Tablespoons of flour and still the dough was somewhat slack - very different than Meilach describes bagel dough should be in her Best Bagels book. The cinnamon raisin bagels turned out the best, as they were very close to the texture of the best bagels I have purchased in bakeries. German states not to give a second rise after the bagels are shaped - to proceed right away to boiling. This produced the closest thing to a real bagel. I guess what I want to hear from other bakers is why would cookbooks actually go to press with such a discrepancy on major ingredients - or is it me? Almost all the recipes in those 2 books seemed to have similar liquid/flour ratios within the covers of each book. I have always had to adjust flour/water by a tablespoon or so - but this was crazy. No wonder so many bread machines are returned. The recipes I have gotten off these lists and in the fatfree archives have been great - it seems if someone has actually tried them and posted them to the list they work well most of the time. But aren't these cookbook recipes tested by many people before they are published? I am certainly not knocking the credibility of the authors of these 2 cookbooks and I know German has a whole series of cookbooks that have sold millions of copies - I am sure they must be good! I have not tried many of her recipes yet - but unfortunately started with this cinnamon bagel recipe. I don't know Meilach's bibliography of cookbooks? Darrell Green who sponsors a sourdough web site, offered his advice to come up with your own flour/water ratios - which I guess I am somehow developing. Is there anywhere in a bm cookbook that gives general baseline flour/water/yeast/sugar/salt starting points for different size loaves of bread? I think from what I am finding that a 3 cup flour recipes generally needs about 1 cup of liquid and a 2 cup flour recipes needs about 3/4 cup of liquid. The recipes in several of my other favorite bm cookbooks seem to follow this ratio. Today I will be trying another bagel recipe! In the rest of my bm cookbooks looking up bagel recipes seem to give these approximate ratios. One cookbook that I really like which incorporates whole grain flours for the majority of the flour called for is "Smart Bread Machine Recipes" by Woodward. These recipes seem to turn out right every time I try a new one with very little or no water/flour adjustments. Of course climate type and brand of flour and crop of wheat all affect the amount of flour / liquid you will need in a bread recipe as we all know. Can't you just develop baseline recipes to which you add seasonings etc. and use those for everything - bread, rolls, pizza dough, bagels etc.? Please flood me with your comments!!!!! Angie ps I would love to hear from people on their favorite ways to grind fresh flour. I have tried only a Vita-Mix - which seems to work well. I do get moisture that seems to fall from the dome on the container into the flour - which is not good. Any helpful hints, or suggestions or comments from people who have tried other grain mills and can compare it to the results of a Vita-Mix. ------------------------------ From: calhoun@gorge.net (Dave Calhoun) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 15:46:27 -0800 Subject: Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #61 My bread machine came with only a few basic recipes. it is the Bread Wizard. Is there any additional recipes available on the net? Thanks, dave ------------------------------ From: Thomas Arneberg {x66642 CF/DEV} Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 09:40:28 -0600 Subject: Irwin's comments > From: CPXD31A@prodigy.com (MR IRWIN H FRANZEL) > Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 13:19:22 EST > Subject: Comments on notes > > I just had the chance to look over the 1/22 Newsletter and would like to > comment on some of the subjects. [...] > 3. PRICE REDUCTION. Our price on the Zoji has been the lowest in the > country for years. We have sold over 1400 of these wonderful machines > for $260, delivered. Zoji has reduced the wholesale price to us and I just wanted to say that Irwin's comments on this list are great!! >From my experience in other mailing lists and newsgroups, there may be someone who says that these "commercial" postings don't belong. So I just wanted to rebut that comment before it comes...I think Irwin's posts are VERY welcome here. Even the "for sale" ones. Thanks, Irwin, for keeping us updated on the deals, and for your instructional comments. - Tom A. - ---------------------------------------------+--------------------------- ;-) I'd rather be ____ Thomas R. Arneberg | Internet: toma@cray.com :-) singing in a |____| MPP IC Design Group | http://www.mcs.com/~toma :-) Barbershop _| _| Cray Research, Inc. | Life's a pitch, :-) Quartet! (_) (_) Chippewa Falls, Wisc.| and then you sing. - ---------------------------------------------+--------------------------- ------------------------------ From: "Cheryl Sousa" Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 10:02:11 -0500 Subject: Where to buy yeast Hi, I live in R.I I purchase my yeast at a food warehouse, SAM'S CLUB or BJ'S CLUB. I think it packaged in 2 1 lb vacuum sealed packages. Cost about $5.00. RED STAR brand. It keeps well in the refrigerator, I had my last package for over a year. I don't have a membership at these places, but I have friends that do so I have them pick it up for me. As you may have already figured, the cost saving is tremendous. Good Luck and Happy Baking. Cheryl Dwyer ------------------------------ From: phust@unlinfo.unl.edu (patricia hust) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 08:18:39 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #62 BAGELS!!! We tried to make bagels this week-end using the dough cycle on our Panasonic ADM. WE used the recipe and technique in their booklet. The resulting blobs were laughable. I think they raised too much after we formed them into bagel shapes and proofed them prior to boiling. Any help with a good recipe and technique for bagels will be appreciated. Thanx ------------------------------ From: LCANS@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 11:27:08 -0500 Subject: Apple Oatmeal bread 1-29-96 Response to:Ellen Ellen@brakes.elekta.com I, also made this bread and had a failure with the small loaf. I tried the add flour and it still failed. I wounder if it has too much sugar. It sounded like such a good recipe. Does the larger loaf work O.K.? Chris Snyder LCANS@AOL.COM ------------------------------ From: "Butts, Diane" Date: Mon, 29 Jan 96 10:32:59 -0500 Subject: thanks for pizza dough answers Hello everyone - Again....I love this list. I've gotten lots of great tips which is great since I'm so very new to bread baking. A couple of weeks ago, I asked for ways to store pizza dough so that I can make it "fresh" when I come home from work. If anyone is interested, here is a compilation of the responses I received. ******* - -I always make my dough the day before. I do it on the dough setting in the bread machine, take it out, spray some Pam in a ziplock bag, and throw the dough into the bag, and seal it up leaving some air space in the bag. Then I put it in the fridge till I want to make the pizza. It does rise in there. This does one other thing too. The resting time makes the dough easier to spread or roll out too. I've also been told you can freeze the dough successfully, but I haven't tried it myself *************** - -If you make pizza dough using a "knead and first rise" cycle or equivalent, you can either freeze the dough or refrigerate it. I usually freeze it, and, if I'm organized enough to plan ahead, I put it in the refrigerator the night before I want to use it. Then when I come home from work, I either roll out it, put toppings on it and bake it or--if I have more time--I roll it out, let it rise again for an hour, then do the rest. It's worth trying both ways. You get a lighter dough if you let it rise again, obviously, but the other way is perfectly fine. By the way, I goofed on my schedule a while back and wound up leaving the dough in the fridge for about 2 weeks before I used it. It did not rise at all that time--I imagine all the little yeast creatures had eaten their fill--but the dough was still good, although more like pita bread than pizza dough. ************** - - Just wrap the dough in plastic wrap and freeze. When you use it you can unwrap it, place it in a bowl, cover, and place in the refrigerator overnite. ************* - -I'll tell you what I do with pizza dough to have it ready when you want it. Make the dough and then shape it on the pan. I use cake pans for individual size pizza, but you can make a large one or two depending on how much dough you have. I let the dough rise a little and shape it with my hand to make a crust around the edge, then take a fork and poke little holes all around the bottom. Put the pizza crusts in a preheated oven for 10 minutes. Remove and let cool. Wrap the crusts in plastic bags, cling wrap, or whatever you use for putting stuff in the freezer. Freeze until you want them. *************************** Diane Butts phone: 202-501-7117 fax: 202-501-6093 e-mail: dbutts@usia.gov **************************** ------------------------------ From: BillyFish@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 13:09:22 -0500 Subject: re: ??sources for bulk rapid-rise yeast cmathew@iadfw.net asked: Does anyone make rapid-rise yeast sold in bulk form??? I'm not too picky about brand names as long as it works well. Help! Joan did not say where she lives. I live in Southern California and get yeast from Smart and Final. You get more than twice as much yeast for half the price. I just bought a pound of Fleischmans' for less that $2.50, but have not used it yet. William Buchman ------------------------------ From: "Ellen F O'Leary" Date: 29 Jan 1996 10:49:54 -0800 Subject: Good Crust Hi! I am a new subscriber to the list and have already picked up some good tips and recipes - thanks! I am experimenting with making what I guess you'd call "country loaves" - bread with good crunchy crusts and nice soft insides. I use the dough setting on my Zo and then bake the bread in the oven. So far, the bread is good but the crust is disappointingly soft. Any helpful hints for getting the crispy crunch? Thanks, Ellen O ------------------------------ From: "Nancy M. Schnepp" Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:27:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: WANTED: Breakfast bread I was so glad to find this list (having gotten a Regal breadmaker for Christmas)! I am looking for a really good breakfast bread. Something with cinnamon and crunchy. Like a coffee cake in a loaf! Anyone? Thanks, - -Nancy S. ------------------------------ From: stevens@mplvax.mpl.com Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:43:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: bread-bakers-digest V6 #60 Dear Joan: Buy your yeast at Sams you can buy a whole pound for what you pay for it at the regular store. You can also get a twenty five pound bag of flour for around eight dollars. jamie stevens in wv.mail ------------------------------ From: jguevara@spin.com.mx (Jenka Guevara) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 19:54:36 -0600 Subject: applesauce cake Someone, sorry I wrote the recipe but not your name, sent this recipe, it is really great. I did not have unsweetened applesauce, so used sweetened one, but omitted the sugar. I also changed the flour, to one cup flour and one whole wheat. What came out was great. The next time I will make one other change, instead of unsweetened chocolate I will try it with cocoa, I believe it is three tablespoons per ounce. If someone thinks this conversion is wrong, please let me know. It is worthwhile making and fast. I am including the recipe again, sorry for not putting the name of the person who sent it, I am grateful for the recipe. I am including it if someone did not get it. CHOCOLATE APPLESAUCE CAKE 3 ounces unsweetened chocolate, melted 2 cups unsweetened applesauce, warmed to room temperature 1 cup sugar 2 cups unbleached all-purpose flour 1 teaspoon baking soda Prehead oven to 350. Spray Pam on a 7 x 12" baking dish. Combine ingredients in the order they appear. Stir well. Spread the batter inthe pan. Bake for 25 minutes, or until top springs back in the center when lightly pressed. Good luck, and if you think of more conversions please let me know Jenka ********************************* Jenka Guevara American School Foundation Mexico City jguevara@spin.com.mx ------------------------------ From: jguevara@spin.com.mx (Jenka Guevara) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 19:54:46 -0600 Subject: recipe for pita bread? Does anyone have a recipe for pita bread they could share, please? thanks Jenka ********************************* Jenka Guevara American School Foundation Mexico City jguevara@spin.com.mx ------------------------------ From: Linda Kosidlo Date: Tue, 30 Jan 96 11:35:58 EST Subject: Storing bread Hi all - I'm new to this list, and am enjoying the postings and the recipes. I've tried both the Honey Wheat Bread and the Apple Cider bread recipes and both have been wonderful. Now to my questions. How do I keep the bread fresh for longer than one day? I usually slice the bread as soon as it cools and put it in a plastic bag. After a day, it starts to get stale. I'd like to have it last a couple of days so I can use it for sandwiches. Any ideas? Another question. I usually use the small packets of yeast (rapid rise, I think). My husband couldn't find this last week and brought home those cubes of yeast. I used two teaspoons of the cube and the bread came out fine. However, this yeast is more 'powdery'. Is this type of yeast not a good choice for a bread machine? Thanks. Linda K. in MA linda@mc.com ------------------------------ From: sherae@zeta.org.au (Sheri McRae) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 16:15:19 +1100 Subject: Bread Storage >CHEFLZ@aol.com wrote: > >I have read of several >methods of storing freshly baked bread,& I've had good >luck in keeping it in a plastic bag(with air holes in it!) for about 1 1/2 >weeks, except for a VERY, VERY moist loaf which I bagged & sealed(not wanting >it to mold), & then refrigerated,BUT are there any better, or other ways? When I found a tin the right shape and size for my bread I grabbed it and considered myself lucky. I find the tin keeps the bread much better than plastic bags for some reason. Maybe something about the plastic not clinging to the bread. Cheers, Sheri Sheri McRae sherae@zeta.org.au Chickens, like two-edged swords, ofttimes come home to roost. - newspaper editor from Wisconsin ------------------------------ From: Al Sroka Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 10:39:11 -0800 Subject: INFO RE BAGUETTES (New Orleans style) French Bread/Baguettes as baked in New Orleans have an airy pile seldom equalled. Vacuoles one inch in diameter are common, giving the baguette unusual lightness.If any list member has information how this result is achieved I would appreciate the recipe, particularly details such as: 1.-Is it made by straight dough or sponge&dough method? 2.-Flour specification and any protein (Vital Gluten) addition 3.- Yeast, type as % of flour 4.-Yeast food if used as % of flour 5.- Dough conditioner, type as % of flour 6.-Any special notes on dough development and baking process . Since I live in the San Francisco area any comments on suppliers will be appreciated. Al Sroka ------------------------------ From: Leotah@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 15:15:00 -0500 Subject: Conversion of bread machine recipes As a very new subscriber, I'm reluctant to flaunt my ignorance too boldly, but seeing the many delicious recipes for bread made in a machine, I was wondering how to convert them to manual baking. Is there some obvious procedure that I just don't know about? In looking over the last few logs, I noted that someone else asked this question, but I haven't yet seen an answer. Thanks to whomever answer this. Laury Epstein ------------------------------ From: Leotah@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 07:35:12 -0500 Subject: La Brea Bakery recipes I've just bought Nancy Silverton's "Breads from La Brea Bakery" solely to be able to make her famous chocolate-cherry bread. After reading the recipe and thinking about my life, I wonder if I'll be able to do this more than once. Specifically, the directions call for the following time commitment: Day 1: work bread dough for approximately 15 minutes, then let it sit for 2 hours. Then refrigerate for "8-12 hours" Day 2: Leave dough out until it gets to room temperature (an hour?). Proof dough 3-4 hours. Bake 1 hour. Unless you're able to do the first step at night, it's hard to refrigerate for only 12 hours. Will anything odious happen if the dough is refrigerated 18 hours? Does a longer refrigeration period simply mean the dough takes longer to get to room temperature? Many of her breads have a rather complicated time element, and I'm trying to figure out what leeway the home baker has here. All comments and suggestions are welcome. Thanks, Laury Epstein, new subscriber ------------------------------ End of bread-bakers-digest V6 #65 ********************************* bread-bakers-digest Sunday, 4 February 1996 Volume 06 : Number 066 Today's Subjects: Wanted rcp for Lebanese bread Pretzels 2 bread recipes DAK repair Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #61 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donald & Sally Taylor" Date: Sun, 04 Feb 1996 12:20:05 -0800 Subject: Wanted rcp for Lebanese bread Dear Bread Bakers, I've baked bread and rolls since I was ten. Over time I have read countless books and recipes, but there is one I still am not sure how to reproduce. Perhaps one of the readers knows the answer to my inquiry. I have a feeling the recipe is simple.? Anyway, thirty years ago, when I was a young bride,we lived and worked in Lebanon. It was there we were first introducded to two varieties of bread that we came to love. One we called Arabic bread which folks in the US know as "pita". The other was a very thin bread called "mountain bread". You could put anything in a mountain bread sandwich: like Laban or Lebni (I can't remember which, but the one that is thicker than yogurt), meats, veggies, jam etc. Then roll it up and eat it something like a taco, but not quite. As I recall the mountain bread's texture is different, it is thinner and approximately 20 inches in diameter. When we would buy a spit roasted chicken, they did not put it in a heavy foil lined bag, they would wrap it in a piece of mountain bread. You then used small pieces of mountain to break off the chicked. It was great! Once when we were up in the mountains, I saw (from a distance) it being baked over an open fire. It was baking on top a metal dome. I hoping there is someone who reads this that will be able to give me some ideas on how to make Lebanese mountain bread. Kartini in SD ------------------------------ From: AnAZAngel@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 12:34:03 -0500 Subject: Pretzels I was wondering if any of you had a recipe for regular hard pretzels like you buy at the grocery store. I have made the soft bread kind using my bread machine and they turned out great, but I was would like to make the other kind too. Thanks. ------------------------------ From: Reggie Dwork Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 21:43:38 -0800 Subject: 2 bread recipes Here are a couple of breads I made today...they are really wonderful... Reggie * Exported from MasterCook II * Brother Juniper's Santa Rosa Struan Recipe By : Rustic European Breads From Your Bread Machine Serving Size : 16 Preparation Time :0:00 Categories : Bread Machine Grains Low Fat Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method - -------- ------------ -------------------------------- 1 1/2 Lb Loaf: -- (1 lb loaf): 2 1/2 Tsp Active Dry Yeast -- (2 t) 3 1/2 C Bread Flour -- (2 C) 1/4 C Polenta -- uncooked, (2 T) 1/4 C Rolled Oats -- (2 T) 1/4 C Brown Sugar -- (2 T) 1/4 C Wheat Bran -- (2 T) 2 Tsp Salt -- (1 t) 1/4 C Brown Rice, Cooked -- (2 T) 2 Tbsp Honey -- (1 T) 1/2 C Buttermilk -- (1/4 C) 1 C Water -- PLUS 2 Tbsp Water -- *NOTE, -- (1/2 C + 1 T) Book by Linda West Eckhardt and Diana Collingwood Butts *NOTE: The amount of water will vary according to the moistness of the rice. Basic Bread Setting Process the ingredients according to your manufacturer's instructions for a basic bread setting. This recipe was developed using just-cooked rice. If your rice has been sitting in the refrigerator overnight, you may need an extra tablespoon or so of water. If your machine has a light crust setting, you might want to try it. Remove the bread from the bread machine pan to a rack to cool. Wrap to store in aluminum foil or ina clean, brown paper bag. This is WONDERFUL!! Entered into MasterCook II and tested for you by Reggie Dwork - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - * Exported from MasterCook II * Pain Au Citron (Lemon Bread) Recipe By : Rustic European Breads From Your Bread Machine Serving Size : 16 Preparation Time :0:00 Categories : Bread Machine Grains Fatfree Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method - -------- ------------ -------------------------------- 2 1/2 Tsp Active Dry Yeast 1 1/2 C Rye Flour -- medium 1 1/4 C Bread Flour 2 Tsp Gluten Flour, 100% 1 Lemon Zest -- grated zest -1 lemon 1 Tsp Salt 1 C Water -- PLUS 3 Tbsp Water Book by Linda West Eckhardt and Diana Collingwood Butts Dough Setting Makes two 6 x 4" oval loaves The addition of lemon zest to a rye and wheat bread yields a citrus-scented bread you'll love with seafood and pates. Shape the breads like big lemons. The crust will be golden brown, and the crumb dense and aromatic. The bread keeps at least 3 days wrapped in nothing but a paper bag. Place all ingredients in the bread machine pan and process on the dough setting, then remove to a lightly floured surface and punch down. Knead a moment or two, then divide the dough into two pieces. Shape each piece into a football (or lemon) shape - a short, thick oval with pointed ends. Place on parchment paper sprinkled with cornmeal and set on a baking sheet. Cover with plastic wrap and let the dough rise in a warm, draft-free place until almost doubled in bulk, no more than 1 hr. Make 3 quick, slashes in the top of each risen loaf. While the dough is rising, preheat the oven to 450 deg F. Bake until golden brown and done through, about 30 min. Remove to a rack and cool thoroughly before slicing. This is quite tasty. Entered into MasterCook II and tested for you by Reggie Dwork - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: HHStruve@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 16:40:45 -0500 Subject: DAK repair Hi Everyone, A couple months ago I saw a post with information about where you could buy parts or have repairs done on the DAK bread machine whose manufacturer had gone out of business. I had no interest since I don't have that brand. Now a friend is in need of the address. Could someone please post or e-mail me this information? I do keep my digests but edit them freely and that information is gone. Thanks for any help. Hannah Struve hhstruve@aol.com ------------------------------ From: "Michael Greenberg, MD" Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 10:29:52 -0800 Subject: Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #61 Here are my (jaded) answers to a few of Angie Fox's bread questions. With regards to bread cookbooks, my favorites are the Tassajara Bread Book, which literally gets into the Zen of baking. Also, Laurel's Kitchen and The Enchanted Broccoli Forest (the 2nd Moosewood cookbook -- the purple one) both have excellent sections on baking. None of these, however, deals with machines. As far as getting pizza onto the pizza stone, I sprinkle cornmeal onto the pizza peel (the big wooden paddle) and craft the pizza directly on the peel. This makes transferring to the baking stone quite simple. This also works great for baking free-form loaves of bread. As for how long to preheat a stone, the directions that came with mine suggests preheating for an hour. I don't always wait that long, but darn near close to it. Finally, on the subject of loaf-slashing. I say slash. Use a very sharp knife or razor. I find that slashing allows some of the steam to escape, keeping the loaf from getting deformed. Don't worry. Bread's tough. You won't kill it. Michael Greenberg San Francisco ------------------------------ End of bread-bakers-digest V6 #66 ********************************* bread-bakers-digest Monday, 12 February 1996 Volume 06 : Number 067 Today's Subjects: subscriber list lost re: Excuse my dust Newcomer with a question Re: Digest #6 re: ??sources for bulk rapid-rise yeast Time delays on bread machines Re: Newcomer with a question Catalogue Addresses Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #65 Desem Bread flour by mail Re:crispy crust Crispy Crust Re: recipe for pita bread? Wheat-less bread recipes bread-bakers-digest V6 #65 (fwd) Help! Bread sticks to my paddle Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #61 re: Clear Flour Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #66 Portuguese Sweet Bread Re: Wanted rcp for Lebanese bread Re: Storing bread ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Reggie Dwork Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 18:45:50 -0800 Subject: subscriber list lost Hi everyone, Well, the beast is hungry again...and sure does like bread...it ate the subscriber list with all 2400+ of you on it. (Burp!!) So this is why the digest is late this weekend. Sorry, we guess we will have to make a yeast offering to it more frequently so it will leave the digest alone. Reggie & Jeff - -- Reggie & Jeff Dwork Owners, bread-bakers, eat-lf, otbf (OverTheBackFence) Mailing Lists For info write or ------------------------------ From: etrencha@sirnet.mb.ca (Elizabeth Trenchard) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 04:10:35 -0600 Subject: re: Excuse my dust >From: "R.C. Sagnella" >Date: Sat, 27 Jan 96 14:15:48 EST >Subject: Excuse My Dust > >I see that there are a number of queries regarding bread machines. I'm >awfully puzzled. We, my wife and I, have been making bread (we grind our >own whole wheat) for many years and have done it, more or less, the old >fashion way with a little help from our KitchenAid mixer, a work horse of a >machine if ever there was one. We make anywhere from five to six loaves at >a time. My question is, where is the advantage in using a bread machine? >Certainly it's not in the time saved, because in either case you must >prepare the dough; furthermore, it seems that you have to wait five hours >and more to realize your efforts of one loaf of bread when you use a >machine. In less time than that we have five delicious loaves ready. > >Bread making the old fashion way is fun and easy. Raise a little flour dust >and try it. > >Regards, > >Ron > >zeno@voicenet.com > Ron I used to make my own bread, but, alas, I now suffer from fibromyalgia. The pain in my arms is so severe at times, that it's even a major task typing this letter! Bread baking became out of the question. My old recipe called for at least ten minutes of kneading, and this would just about do me in. My dad bought me a bread machine for my birthday last year, and it has been the greatest thing! It takes me only five minutes (or less) of prep time, and then it's set to go. It does the rest of the work by itself. And, there's very little mess. I can set it on a timer, so that when I wake up, the bread is just finished baking, so I have fresh bread for breakfast. Sure, I can't bake five loaves at once, but I can bake them as I need them. Before I owned one, I didn't think I'd use it much, but it's the most often used appliance in my kitchen (besides the frig and stove). Hope this clears things up for you. Bess Trenchard etrencha@sirnet.mb.ca * It is good to have an end to journey toward; * * but it is the journey that matters, in the end. * * -Ursula K. LeGuin * ------------------------------ From: cmathew@iadfw.net (Craig & Joan Mathew) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 07:22:29 -0600 (CST) Subject: Newcomer with a question >From: Jerry D >Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 21:12:29 -1000 (HST) >Subject: Newcomer with a question > >Aloha. I'm brand-new to the list and not even brand new (as yet) to bread >baking. I want to learn the manual method. Have NEVER baked bread before in >my life and want suggestions as to a full-on book on the subject....the BEST >one any or all of you have seen. Cost is no object. I simply want the most >thorough text in print. Jerry, In my opinion, the best books on my shelf for bread-baking are: _The New Complete Book of Breads_, by Bernard Clayton _Secrets of a Jewish Baker_, (can't remember author's name) _The Breads of France_, by Bernard Clayton Hope this helps, Joan ------------------------------ From: jb@vitinc.com (Jean Burnett) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 06:32:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Digest #6 To Craig and Joan - I can only say, thank you for a lucid, charming sharing of your collected wisdom. It was not my query, but I learned from it. To Ron - who asks why would anyone use a bread machine...I have arthritus and had given up all bread making. So this has been a boon to me. Also, the machine provides a perfect rising environment. I confess that I never use the baking function but prefer to make dough, then go on from there, using my own creativity. We enjoy filled savory loaves, and stuff the dough with everything from sausage & peppers to broccoli, cheese & sundried tomatoes. And finally, a question. I have been hesitant to mess around with unproven (no pun intended) recipes. How does one convert a regular bread recipe to the bread machine? I am so glad I joined this group! Jean Burnett ------------------------------ From: cmathew@iadfw.net (Craig & Joan Mathew) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 07:29:46 -0600 (CST) Subject: re: ??sources for bulk rapid-rise yeast >Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 13:09:22 -0500 >Subject: re: ??sources for bulk rapid-rise yeast > >cmathew@iadfw.net asked: > >Does anyone make rapid-rise yeast sold in bulk form??? I'm not too picky >about brand names as long as it works well. Help! > >Joan did not say where she lives. I live in Southern California and get >yeast from Smart and Final. You get more than twice as much yeast for half >the price. I just bought a pound of Fleischmans' for less that $2.50, but >have not used it yet. > >William Buchman William, You are absolutely right...I forgot to mention where I live! I live just north of the Dallas (TX) metroplex. At the advice of some helpful folks here, I went to my local Sam's Club to find out what they carried in the way of yeast products. Nothing. I am pretty familiar with their baking aisle, and they didn't have a thing in stock. I also went to ask if they would be carrying any yeast at all, and they said they could check into it but usually whatever was out is what they have. I'm not holding my breath. So, for you folks who have a Price Club or Sam's Club or whatever that carries this stuff....consider yourself lucky!! I guess I shall have to find a good mail-order source (e.g., King Arthur). Thanks very much for all your kind responses, Joan ------------------------------ From: reedan@globalone.net (Daniela Sciaky) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 09:57:14 -0500 Subject: Time delays on bread machines I'm just curious about the newest and latest and greatest bread machines. I have an antique by anyone elses standards-a 1 lb Panasonic that was bought about 5-6 years ago. It has four types of cycles, ie bake light, bake dark, dough and another that I forget. There are no crust type settings. One very nice feature is that it adds the yeast separately after the first kneading. I have found that I am using the dough cycle more and more to make things like pizza dough and breads that need to be shaped. Sometimes I don't have the time to wait for the dough to be made or I miss-time and realize that the dough will be ready when I'm in transit somewhere. Is there a machine that has DELAY DOUGH? Since my yeast is added separately it shouldn't be any different than doing a delay bake. Thanks for any suggestions. Daniela ------------------------------ From: Vinny Jones Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 09:06:20 -0600 Subject: Re: Newcomer with a question > >From: Jerry D >Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 21:12:29 -1000 (HST) >Subject: Newcomer with a question > >Aloha. I'm brand-new to the list and not even brand new (as yet) to bread >baking. I want to learn the manual method. Have NEVER baked bread before in >my life and want suggestions as to a full-on book on the subject....the BEST >one any or all of you have seen. Cost is no object. I simply want the most >thorough text in print. I started with Anne William's _Look & Cook_, a book with a variety of recipes from plain white bread to focaccia. It has *pictures* of everything - what the dough and bread should look like at each stage of the making, the tools, the ingredients -- perfect for a beginner. The hardcover price is $19.95 and it is published by Dorling Kindersley. ISBN 1-56458-866-1. Good luck! ------------------------------ From: Bonnie Pollack Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 12:05:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Catalogue Addresses I am sure this has been done. I am a new user of this awesome list. I now make a loaf a day and never the same recipe twice. I would appreciate a listing of places to buy flour and yeast by mail. I would also particularly like the address for King Arthurs. Our local Sams club is limited to the types of flour and the one specialty shop has out of sight prices. Bonnie Pollack Thanks in Advance ------------------------------ From: vegasjb@ix.netcom.com (John and Marcia Bean ) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 09:49:48 -0800 Subject: Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #65 With regard to yeast: I also buy the bulk from Sam's club and always have good results. I have a Magic Mill wheat grinder and grind my own whole wheat and rye flours. I purchased it over 12 years ago and it works as well as the day I purchased it.I have had several bread machines over the years and I have found that for good results I always do it by touch as the bread mixes I feel and add more water or flour as needed, and I never have problems with poor quality bread.In place of oil in my breads I use apple sauce if on hand but I have also thrown in half a ripe banana and many other kinds of fruit.I made my bread by hand for fifteen years before I bought my first bread machine and I must say I would never go back to hand mixing. ------------------------------ From: Paula Countryman Date: Sun, 4 Feb 96 10:13 PST Subject: Desem Bread I am new to this list and I am looking for people who have baked or are baking Desem bread as outlined in Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book. It is a naturally levened whole wheat bread, with the only ingredients being the starter, whole wheat flour, salt and water. I'd like to hear from others who have started this baking adventure. Also, does anyone know about using a grind of whole wheat flour called unifine? I am wondering if it is as nutritionally sound as regular whole wheat flour. I grind my own flour using my kitchenaid grain mill, but have recently started using this unifine whole wheat flour - it turns out beautiful loaves of bread. Thanks, Paula Countryman paulac@on-ramp.ior.com ------------------------------ From: Norman Ramsey Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 12:37:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: flour by mail My wife and I are very pleased with Arrowhead Mills flour. They sell by mail, and you can get a small discount if you order 30lbs at once. The address is: Arrowhead Mills\\Box 2059\\Hereford, TX 79045 Norman Ramsey ------------------------------ From: Kate Kramer Date: Sun, 04 Feb 1996 11:41:10 -0800 Subject: Re:crispy crust Ellen O writes: > I am experimenting with making what I guess you'd call >"country loaves" - bread with good crunchy crusts and nice soft insides. I use >the dough setting on my Zo and then bake the bread in the oven. So far, the >bread is good but the crust is disappointingly soft. Any helpful hints for >getting the crispy crunch? > Ellen, if you put a shallow pan of water in the oven on the shelf under the bread you will, I think, get the crust you want. You could also spray the crust with water a couple of times during the first half hour of baking, but I get great result with the pan of water, and I don't have to remember to spray. Kate Kramer Windward Farm Running Hounds and Working Terriers Bandon-by-the-Sea, OR seadog@harborside.com ------------------------------ From: potato@stlnet.com (Frank Weltner) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 13:51:22 -0600 Subject: Crispy Crust The secret to crispy crust is moisture in the oven. The French get theirs crispy in brick ovens which pick up moisture overnight. They also toss water into the oven and make sure that the bread's outside is moist. You can spray the break with water from a small plastic pump. You can place a pan of boiling water in the oven. You can paint the outside of the bread with egg. If you want that nice crunchy bottom on your bread, toss corn meal on the bottom of the bread or baking pan. The corn will adhere to it and toast up very crunchy. Over crunch delights include poppy seeds or hulled sesame seeds for the top and sides. These may also be placed in with the dough for a nice poppy or sesame flavor. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- \\\|/// \\ ~ ~ // ( @ @ ) ------------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo---------------------- | | | THE COUCH POTATO | | Creature of Wonderful Ideals | | potato@stl.com | | | --------------------------Oooo.---------------------- .oooO ( ) ( ) ) / \ ( (_/ \_) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Helping us all to find a kindler, gentler, view. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - --- ------------------------------ From: jjberger@computek.net (Jenny) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 15:29:59 -0600 Subject: Re: recipe for pita bread? >Does anyone have a recipe for pita bread they could share, please? > >thanks >Jenka Here's one that I found while searching for a recipe for fatayer. It comes from a book called "Lebanese Mountain Cookery" by Mary Laird Hamady. The book itself has everything my grandmother used to make (and then some) with tons of folklore, tips & tricks. Although I've not tried to make this myself (my kitchen is little bigger than a closet), I've tasted my friend's labors using this recipe, and have been pleasantly surprised. Enjoy!! ROUND FLAT ARABIC BREAD ("pita" bread) 1 T. (1 pkg) dry yeast 1 t. sugar 1 cup lukewarm water 15 cups unbleached white flour 4 1/2 T. salt 5 cups lukewarm water (for more nutritious breads, add 1 1/2 cups nonfat dry milk to water and beat well) 3 T. olive oil Proof the yeast by dissolving the yeast & sugar in 1 cup lukewarm water for 5 to 10 minutes. Mix 14 cups flour and salt together in a large bowl, reserving 1 cup flour for kneading. Add 5 cups lukewarm water, oil, and the yeast mixture all at once to flour. Stir with wooden spoon or with hands until dough sticks together. Turn out onto a floured board or cloth and knead very well. Gradually add the reserved flour to keep dough from sticking. Kneading may take 10 to 15 minutes. Dough is ready when it feels elastic; bubbles will break on the surface when you form it into a ball. NOTE: It is important to knead this dough sufficiently. Proper kneading will insure that the breads puff up, or balloon, during the short, very hot baking time. Otherwise, the air pocket that creates the top & bottom layers of bread may not form completely. Place in a greased bowl and cover with a dry cloth. let dough rise in a warm place, undisturbed, until it doubles in size (about 2 hours). Punch dough down. Oil hands and divide dough into 25 to 30 balls the size of small oranges. Again, cover them with a dry cloth and place in a warm spot to rise for 30 minutes. Roll each ball into a 7 to 8 inch circle, 1/4 inch thick or less. Place circles of dough on flat boards or a table. Cover with dry cloth and let rise 1 hour. Meanwhile, preheat oven to 450 degrees. Place breads on baking sheets, 2 per sheet. When you remove the dough rounds to the baking sheets, flip them so the top side becomes the bottom side on the sheet. The moister surface is now exposed and rises more easily than the other, which may have dried out slightly. Bake in mid-oven, 2 sheets (4 breads) at a time, for 4 to 6 minutes. After 2 to 3 minutes, the breads will rise and balloon on the baking sheets. Bake 2 to 3 minutes longer, until just slightly brown on the bottom. Slide breads onto a board to cool, and spray immediately with water. Cover with a damp cloth. When completely cool, flatten them gently with your hand and stack in a pile. Cover stack with a damp tea towel for 2 to 3 hours. Yield: 25 to 30 breads. Freezes well. Jenny L. Berger jjberger@computek.net "Where the hell are the singin' cats?" - Paul Newman ------------------------------ From: "Robert J. Lebowitz" Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 17:29:12 -0600 (CST) Subject: Wheat-less bread recipes I've been a regular bread baker for years, I used to make fresh challah for the guys on my dorm floor every Friday when I lived in Israel, and since I discovered that I could knead dough using Cuisinart (R), I've made more breads more often. My wife and I recently became friends with a couple who have severe allergies to wheat. I've been experimenting with spelt flour breads, and I've even prepared a bread based on the rye batter bread recipe found on the back of Pillsbury brand rye flour where I substitute spelt for white and whole wheat flour. I'm interested in obtaining other recipes for yeast-leavened non-wheat breads. Any ideas?? Rob Lebowitz - lebowitz@finaltouch.com ------------------------------ From: karant@gallium.csusb.edu (Dr. Yasha Karant) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 13:22:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: bread-bakers-digest V6 #65 (fwd) Forwarded message: > Subject: bread-bakers-digest V6 #65 > > From: ClayCooker@aol.com > Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 09:58:10 -0500 > Subject: Re: #61 Angie Fox questions > > - -----Programmable machine?....yes the Zojirushi S 15 is programmable. This is the official advertising line; we have one, and it works fine for the factory programs. However, to "program" it, one needs to actually sit with it during the entire cycle, watching a clock for the correct elapsed times and interrupting the cycles (with excellent timing and coordination, else one will be off by minutes, say if one were doing other things about the house/kitchen and not paying attention for just a moment). The machine does not let one program it in the conventional sense of the word: enter from the control panel in advance of use a set of times for each of the portions of the kneading/resting/baking/... cycle for the custom program. Rather, it "learns" by interruption during the actual cycles what the user wants, requiring the user to interrupt it at precisely the correct moment. The above information is what I have received from the USA Zojirushi factory service persons. If anyone out there knows a way to conventionally program the unit, in advance of actual use, please let me know. By the way, other than its miserable programming feature, I highly recommend the Zo'; it is powerful enough to handle whole grain recipes and produce dense whole grain bread (not just "WonderBread" -- which is a wonder to call bread). Yasha Karant karant@gallium.csusb.edu ------------------------------ From: jonathan@cyberus.ca (Jonathan File) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 16:39:59 -0500 Subject: Help! Bread sticks to my paddle I've got a Westbend bread maker. It is about 1.5 years old now. For the last while, I've had a heck of a time getting my loaf out of the pan...the reason being, the paddle won't come out of the cooked loaf. With much banging and shaking, the loaf finally comes out, tearing a huge chunk of bread out of the bottom of the loaf. Has anyone else had that problem? Any suggestions? I've tried cooking sprays, but they don't help. I may need to buy a new paddle, but I thought I would check here, to see if anyone has any ideas. Thanks, Jonathan ------------------------------ From: Chuck Anderson Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 16:01:13 -0600 Subject: Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #61 >From: BrawnyBear@aol.com >Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 10:40:32 -0500 >Subject: Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #61 > >I have been reading this digest for a couple of weeks now. It appears that >most of the contributors and using a machine. Does anyone here still make >bread by hand?? Not all out here are of the bread machine variety. I still like to experiment and get my hands dirty (with flour of course). I do cheat a little and let my mixers kneading attachment some of the muscle work. I would be interested in recipes geared more toward non-machine bread... anyone else have some...... ps. I'm particular to sourdough recipes if you have them. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Anderson chester@pclink.com chucka@mpls.mort.com If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. - Eldridge Cleaver - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: amy@kurtzman.com (Amy Kurtzman) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 14:05:10 -0900 Subject: re: Clear Flour Steve and Marilyn Kerman write: > I have been baking Jewish Rye Bread for a few weeks using the recipe in > "Secrets of a Jewish Baker" by George Greenstein. The results have been > wonderful. > The recipe calls for "Clear Flour or First Clear" sometimes called "common > flour". <... snip> > Does anyone have any idea on an alternative or a source for reasonable > quantities. I've got that book and think it's great too. One tip he gave that was quite interesting to me is about filling the KitchenAid mixer with the right amount of dough to get the best kneading performance from it. For each recipe he gives three different versions with specific amounts of ingredients to use for different mixing methods (by hand, food processor, or KitchenAid). I have seen Clear Flour offered in the King Arthur Flour Baker's Catalogue. I don't have a current catalog, but in one from last year, it was sold in a 5 lb. sack. Their phone number is 1-800-827-6836. ------------------------------ From: Marta Martin Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 22:26:58 -0500 Subject: Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #66 If the Mountain Bread Kartini in SD wrote for is also called Lavash...I do have the recipe. I was introduced to it while dining with Lebanese people in Birmingham...they folded the bread just like a napkin! It is wonderful. I like to spread peanut butter and jelly on it and roll it up for my kids. Let me know and I will send it in to the list, Kartini. Marta Martin ============================================================================ Marta Martin-(marta@citynet.net) I have become one with my computer. It is a feeling of ecstasy...the perfect blend of logic and emotion. I have reached......Nerdvana. Dilbert by Scott Adams Shake your hips and hope for the best. Camille, age 9 Jesus is coming! Look Busy! (seen on a bumper sticker) ============================================================================= ------------------------------ From: bzwax@tiac.net (Rich & Debbie) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 18:46:08 -0500 Subject: Portuguese Sweet Bread Hi: just made this today and IT WAS DELIGHTFUL! I'm really glad I didn't have a recipe for a larger loaf than the 1.5# (mine usually takes a 2#) because as it was, it rose up to the top and smashed against the glass...had to cut off the top 1" because it didnt' cook right being up against the lid. The flavor is really wonderful...I had never known what made Portuguese Sweet Bread taste the way it does before making this loaf. The combination of the lemon and vanilla really tastes different than you would imagine when added to this bread. Here it is, slightly adapted from a King Arthur's Flour recipe: 1 cup evaporated skim milk 3 Tbs unsalted butter, but into pieces 2 large eggs Finely grated rind of 1 lemon 5 Tbs sugar 1 Tbs vanilla extract 1 tsp salt 1 Tbs gluten 2 cups whole wheat bread flour 1.75 cups white, all purpose flour 1 tsp King Arthur special instant yeast (formulated for sweet breads) Combine ingredients and bake on basic white bread setting. Watch it doesn't rise too far! Best-Debbie Bier Concord, MA ------------------------------ From: jjberger@computek.net (Jenny) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 23:17:10 -0600 Subject: Re: Wanted rcp for Lebanese bread >>From: "Donald & Sally Taylor" >>Date: Sun, 04 Feb 1996 12:20:05 -0800 >>Subject: Wanted rcp for Lebanese bread >> >>Dear Bread Bakers, >> >>I've baked bread and rolls since I was ten. Over time I have >>read countless books and recipes, but there is one I still >>am not sure how to reproduce. Perhaps one of the readers knows >>the answer to my inquiry. >> >>I have a feeling the recipe is simple.? Anyway, thirty years ago, >>when I was a young bride,we lived and worked in Lebanon. It >>was there we were first introducded to two varieties of bread >>that we came to love. One we called Arabic bread which folks >>in the US know as "pita". The other was a very thin bread called >>"mountain bread". You could put anything in a mountain bread >>sandwich: like Laban or Lebni (I can't remember which, but the >>one that is thicker than yogurt), meats, veggies, jam etc. >>Then roll it up and eat it something like a taco, but not quite. >>As I recall the mountain bread's texture is different, it is >>thinner and approximately 20 inches in diameter. >> >>When we would buy a spit roasted chicken, they did not put it >>in a heavy foil lined bag, they would wrap it in a piece of >>mountain bread. You then used small pieces of mountain to break >>off the chicked. It was great! >> >>Once when we were up in the mountains, I saw (from a distance) >>it being baked over an open fire. It was baking on top a metal >>dome. >> >>I hoping there is someone who reads this that will be able to >>give me some ideas on how to make Lebanese mountain bread. >> >>Kartini in SD > I found this recipe while I was searching for a recipe for fatayer. It's from a book called "Lebanese Mountain Cookery" by Mary Laird Hamady. I highly recommend this tome since it covers everything my grandmother (Lebanese by marriage) used to make & then some, as well as includes cuisine folklore, tips & tricks. Enjoy!! >1 T. (1 pkg) dry yeast >1 t. sugar >1 cup lukewarm water >15 cups unbleached white flour >4 1/2 T. salt >5 cups lukewarm water (for more nutritious breads, add 1 1/2 cups nonfat dry milk to water and beat well) >3 T. olive oil > >Proof the yeast by dissolving the yeast & sugar in 1 cup lukewarm water for 5 to 10 minutes. > >Mix 14 cups flour and salt together in a large bowl, reserving 1 cup flour for kneading. Add 5 cups lukewarm water, oil, and the yeast mixture all at once to flour. Stir with wooden spoon or with hands until dough sticks together. Turn out onto a floured board or cloth and knead very well. Gradually add the reserved flour to keep dough from sticking. Kneading may take 10 to 15 minutes. Dough is ready when it feels elastic; bubbles will break on the surface when you form it into a ball. > >Place in a greased bowl and cover with a dry cloth. let dough rise in a warm place, undisturbed, until it doubles in size (about 2 hours). Punch dough down. Oil hands and divide dough into 25 to 30 balls the size of small oranges. Again, cover them with a dry cloth and place in a warm spot to rise for 30 minutes. > >Preheat oven to 450 degrees. if you have an electric oven, set it to broil at 450 degrees, placing a baking sheet on the lowest rack. then turn a Chinese wok upside down so it rests on the baking sheet. For a gas oven, place an upside-down wok on the floor of the oven. > >Combine 3/4 cup cornmeal with the same amount of flour. Flatten each ball of dough and dip both sides in the cornmeal mixture. Place them like pancakes in a stack, separating them with wax paper. Make five piles of 6 each (more than 6 may cause the piles to topple over). Cover all the stacks with a cloth so they don't dry out. > >Roll out each pancake until it is as thin and round as possible. Then pick up dough and begin to stretch it by flipping it back & forth between your hands. A pizza technique of throwing it up in the air, catching it, and flattening the edges of the circle with your thumb and forefinger works fine. Good luck! > >Make a fist with one hand and place dough on top of fist. Then turn dough in circles with other hand, pulling on edges so they get as thin as possible. The shape will be an irregular 14 to 16 inch circle unless you are a wizard at circles. > >Drape dough on top of hot wok. Bake 30 to 60 seconds, until lightly browned and bubbly. Peel off and place on baking sheet. Run under broiler for 5 to 10 seconds until dark brown. > >Remove to board, spray with water (see Note) and cover with damp cloth. Stack new breads on top of old ones. Cover finished stack with damp tea towels. When bread is pliable (after 2-3 hours), fold each in quarters and package in plastic. > >NOTE: Traditionally the bread is not dampened at all. Thin spots are crisp and brittle. Finished breads are simply stacked on top of each other. We recommend dampening the bread because we discovered we preferred it pliable, it kept better, and it was also easier to store. > Jenny L. Berger jjberger@computek.net "Where the hell are the singin' cats?" - Paul Newman ------------------------------ From: "S. Shimeall" Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 14:40:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Storing bread > Now to my questions. How do I keep the bread fresh for longer > than one day? I usually slice the bread as soon as it cools > and put it in a plastic bag. After a day, it starts to > get stale. I'd like to have it last a couple of days so I > can use it for sandwiches. Any ideas? Try your local Tupperware dealer. I purchased the new bread machine storage containers they have and really like how well it keeps the bread fresh for several days. It's much easier to get the bread in and out of compared to the gallon zip-locks. Priscilla ------------------------------ End of bread-bakers-digest V6 #67 ********************************* bread-bakers-digest Monday, 12 February 1996 Volume 06 : Number 068 Today's Subjects: bread-bakers-digest V6 #65 -Reply manual v machine Potato Rolls breadmaker comparisons Catalogs. Onion Sourdough starter Banana Nut Bread Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #62 Useful life of yeast?? Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #63 Herbs & Flavor Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #61 Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #65 Why use a bread machine? Rolls & Gluten Lebanese bread recipe 7 or 9 Grain Whole Wheat Bread Measuring cups Re: Conventional breads Conventional breads bread-bakers-digest V6 #66 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Marie Bays" Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 10:04:00 -500 Subject: bread-bakers-digest V6 #65 -Reply Sorry, I can't help you now with King Arthur's yeast...............but I ordered some last week which should be here soon and I will be glad to let you know! bays@coe.unt.edu ------------------------------ From: Cherie Ambrosino Date: 5 Feb 96 11:50:01 Subject: manual v machine A few digests ago, Ron wrote : >I see that there are a number of queries regarding bread machines. I'm >awfully puzzled. We, my wife and I, have been making bread (we grind our >own whole wheat) for many years and have done it, more or less, the old >fashion way with a little help from our KitchenAid mixer, a work horse of a >machine if ever there was one. We make anywhere from five to six loaves at >a time. My question is, where is the advantage in using a bread machine? >Certainly it's not in the time saved, because in either case you must >prepare the dough; furthermore, it seems that you have to wait five hours >and more to realize your efforts of one loaf of bread when you use a >machine. In less time than that we have five delicious loaves ready. Ron - I have to agree. Before people get annoyed, let me just say that for many years I used my R2D2 Dak with delight, having never baked bread before. I only stopped about 6 months ago [coincidentally, a few months after I subscribed to this list] I think many people start with the machines because breadmaking seems mysterious unless you grew up with it around you [my mom's a great cook but never baked anything but "mixes"] The machines have really done a lot to bring back breadmaking, I think, it made it less scary for me to try. After reading all the great advice on this list though, from people who really understand bread and its components, I started [for the first time!] to bake bread the way I cook everything else - with less formality, a looser attachment to recipes, and more freedom to do the "little of this little ofthat" kind of cooking I like! After experimenting alot it all finally crystalized in my head and I haven't used R2D2 at all since! [yes, he's lonely, but he's going to my mom's house first chance I get!] I think others may like the machines because you don't have to use any kitchen space - no counters for kneading, no extra pans or anything - just throw it in! And the timer function is nice, although I almost never used it myself. On another note, I'm planning to fill R2D2s old space with a mixer, so I can wimp out on some of the heavy kneading [and make more loaves in an evening!] but I'm confused. I know theres a 4.5 qt[?] and a 5qt model. I vaguely remember the frugal gourmet [who would never tell us anything but the truth!] saying he liked his 5 qt best because it had a stronger motor - his 4.5 qt didn't do very well with kneading dough - is this still true? I know the 5 qts are always significantly more money than the 4.5 [which are often also on sale!] - I don't mind spending the extra if the lesser one won't work well, but I'm not sure I am right about the reason - any tips? I'd appreciate comments from others who use this method as well - and thanks again to all of you for the great recipes - this is my favorite list! Cherie ------------------------------ From: wmay@aplcore.jhuapl.edu (Wendy L. May) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 96 11:51:20 EST Subject: Potato Rolls Hello, bread bakers, I was wondering if anyone has a recipe, hand or machine, for what we call "potato rolls." They are a store-bought roll, supposedly made from potatoes, that my husband loves because they are delicious and have a lovely soft texture, great for sandwiches. However, they are a bit on the pricey side, and I'd love to learn how to make them! Anyone with a recipe for a nice soft potato bread, please forward! Thanks, Wendy ------------------------------ From: Cherie Ambrosino Date: 5 Feb 96 12:54:12 Subject: breadmaker comparisons Hi all, I just wanted to let you know that I just stumbled on an interesting page at http://agriculture.com/contents/sf/food/media/table.gif Its a table of different breadmakers including recommended costs, different features, addresses and sometimes notes on the machines - nifty! Also pictures for those who've seen "what so and so had" but forgotten the name! Enjoy! Cherie ------------------------------ From: Rodney McColl Date: Tue, 9 Jan 96 09:17 NZDT Subject: Catalogs. Good morning from New Zealand. >From time to time I see mentioned various catalogs mentioned. We in NZ are a bit short of suppliers of home bread making accessories and it would be great to see what is available. I do not use a bread maker but use the traditional methods but have no trouble adapting the many receipes. Can anyone post the Email addresses of companies that I can send for a catalog.? Many thanks Rod __________________________________________________ Rod McColl There is nothing man fears more - than the unknown. 504 New Brighton Road, Christchurch, New Zealand Ph & Fax +64-3-388-5784 __________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: widera@unr.edu (Debra Widera) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 12:49:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Onion Sourdough starter To whoever it was who needed clarification on the onion starter (sorry! I accidentally deleted the wrong group of messages after printing!), here's what I do: Get a good, fresh onion (I have used white, yellow, red, and those cute little pearl onions). Peel it & cut it into a manageable-sized piece. In a jar, mix about 1/3 c. warm water (about 100 deg.), 1/3 c. flour, 1/2 tsp. granulated yeast (to get it going), a *pinch* of sugar (just a bit--you want to let all that sugar in the onion do the majority of the work!). Mix this all this stuff up til it's good & smooth. Take a piece of cheese cloth, wet it with lukewarm water and wrap the onion piece in it; tie with a string & put it in the flour mixture. Just take care of this like any starter (stirring every day, etc.). At the end of 1-2 weeks (depending on how it's coming along), discard the onion. This makes great sourdough onion dill bread! Debra widera@unr.edu ------------------------------ From: Billy Hatcher <0002040826@mcimail.com> Date: Mon, 5 Feb 96 12:28 EST Subject: Banana Nut Bread The following is the best (and most forgiving) banana bread recipe I've come across. Don't recall where I got the original, but have modified it quite a bit, so it is pretty much my own. I use it if I happen to have some grossly over ripe bananas on hand, and if not, try to go to a grocery which has a mark down produce section for them. The key to really good banana flavor is using very, very ripe bananas. If it is almost black, mushy and oozing juice, it is perfect for the bread. Enjoy! BANANA CRUNCH BREAD INGREDIENTS: 1 c. mashed, very ripe bananas 1 c. sugar 2 eggs 3 tbs milk 2 c. flour 1/2 tsp salt 1/2 tsp soda 1 1/2 tsp baking powder 1/2 c. melted butter or margarine 1 tsp vanilla 1/2 c. chopped nuts (optional) DIRECTIONS: Preheat oven to 350 deg. Beat bananas, sugar and eggs together until light. Stir in milk. Add sifted dry ingredients and mix thoroughly. Stir in melted butter, vanilla and nuts. Pour into 1 standard or 2 smaller bake pans and bake one hour or until done. Baking time may need to be reduced for smaller pans. Done when tooth pick tests dry. Cool thoroughly before slicing. [I generally double this recipe, and it freezes very well.] Bill Hatcher 204-0826@mcimail.com Southampton County, Virginia, USA *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man. -Thomas Jefferson, 1764 *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ------------------------------ From: CPXD31A@prodigy.com (MR IRWIN H FRANZEL) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 17:45:43 EST Subject: Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #62 1. "??Sources for bulk rapid-rise yeast." Joan Mathew asks We consider bulk packages to be at least one pound. If you have access to a Sam's Wholesale Club or a Price Club, Red Star Instant Dry Yeast if available in two one pound packages which are sealed and connected. I don't know what the current price is but it was very good. We used it in all our baking at Delta Rehabilitation, Inc., for the first two years that we ran the Bread Baking program. We had tested Fleischmann's yeast and found that the Red Star produced much better results in bread machines. At our second Bread Bakers' ReUnion in Tampa, in 1993, Loreli Aguda insisted that I obtain and evaluate SAF Instant French Yeast. The results were quite spectacular. This is what we found: SAF yeast is made in France and the company motto is, "The French Yeast that turns your kitchen into a bakery." The aroma is wonderful! SAF commercial yeast is the best yeast we have ever tested in bread machines. In addition to producing a wonderful bakery aroma, the SAF commercial yeast contains dough enhancers, conditioners and emulsifiers. These are the ingredients that are responsible for making the consistent breads that bakeries produce. 5.3 oz packages (150 grams) of the SAF French Instant Yeast is being sold for $7.00 each, plus S&H. The commercial package is 17.5 ozs (500 grams). We have arranged to make SAF Instant yeast available in the commercial package for our customers. We are able to sell this pack, which is over 3 times as large, for only $7.50, including shipping and handling! This yeast has a shelf life of two years! We have developed a method to extend the life of instant yeast to four years! This method has been tested on Red Star yeast but we've only been using the SAF for two years. Nevertheless, there is little doubt that it will work the same with SAF. Complete use and storage instructions are included with each package. You won't be disappointed! Joan asks a follow up question. 2. What is the difference between regular yeast and rapid rise yeast? What do they actually do to the yeast to cause it to be different? Yeast is a living organism. Over time, it mutates like other living organisms. The rapid rise yeasts are the epicureans of the yeast dominions. Linda Rehberg and Lois Conway have said, "They lead a short life but a merry one." They eat faster than regular yeasts, they produce carbon dioxide faster and they lose their vitality more quickly. In early days of bread making, the mixed flour and water was left in a pan where wild yeast would come out of the air, settle in the mixture and start a sourdough. One bread could be very different from another and samples of the sourdough were saved to be used over and over as sourdough aficionados do today. It wasn't before Louis Pasteur came on the scene and identified the organisms of yeast. He also developed techniques for growing pure strains that are still being used for bread and wine making. In fact, SAF yeast, which is made by LeSafre yeast company, bought the patents of Pasteur for their own business activity. SAF is the oldest and largest yeast maker in the world. If you have difficulty thinking of regular and instant yeast being so different, there are two rodents that are very similar but live at different rates, like the two yeasts. The mouse is a relatively slow living rodent in contrast to the shrew, which is a very fast living rodent. The shrew eats almost constantly to support its metabolism and has a short life. The mouse eats and lives more slowly and has a longer life. I don't know whether you appreciate the diversion and analogy or not. But there is one more thing to say about the instant yeast. SAF and Red Star Instant, may both be used on the regular cycle and on the quick cycle in the Zoji S-15A. In our tests, 1/2 tsp SAF yeast per cup flour is adequate for the regular cycle. 3/4 tsp SAF yeast per cup flour is adequate for the quick cycle (no other changes are required in the recipes). For Red Star, use the amount called for in the recipe in either case. Neither of these yeasts will survive long enough to work on the French Bread cycle of machines so equipped. 2. "Please, what went wrong? Ellen Rakes asks. Oats, depending upon how they are cut, tend to keep dough from rising. I don't know for sure but I think that oat flakes have edges that cut through the gas bubbles and cause them to collapse. To fix this and it does work, add gluten (not high gluten flour) at the rate of 1-1/2 tsp per cup white flour and 1 Tbs per cup of whole grain flour or oat flakes. Someone noted in an earlier post that oats took more time to absorb liquid. If you are using a Zoji S-15 or S-15A, try going through the first knead without adding additional flour. During the rest between kneads 1 and 2, look at the dough ball. If it has not completely cleaned up the dough around the pan, add 1 Tbs flour and watch the start of the 2nd knead. If it still doesn't clean up all the dough and make a smooth ball, add another Tbs flour and adjust your recipe. Please take note that different apple sauces and different dried fruits contain varying amounts of liquid. Stay with the same source of supply, if you expect your recipes to be consistent. Happy baking! Irwin ------------------------------ From: tshih@ucsd.edu (Timothy Shih) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 17:19:28 -0800 Subject: Useful life of yeast?? Hello, I'm a newcomer to this list. Sorry if this has been asked before. I have a bread machine and use the large,(1 lb.) package of active dry yeast (mostly Red Star). My question is, how come when I open the package, the yeast potency is very good and with every loaf I make after opening the package, it goes down hill. It seems like I have to use more and more to achieve the same amount of rise. After a month or two it seems like the yeast is unuseable. And yes I do store it in the fridge. I used to think that using the little packets were too expensive, but now wondering.... Any help would be appreciated, Tim Shih ------------------------------ From: Frank and Christine Laberge Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 21:04:01 -0500 Subject: Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #63 Herbs & Flavor >Have noticed many times when I use herbs in a bread machine recipe, the >final result is less than satisfactory. Yesterday, I was very disappointed >when I made a dill bread from Bread Machine Magic - using lots of dill and >lots of dried onion. It smelled great and all that, but when I took a >taste, there was little, if any, of either the dill or the onion. > >My herbs/spices are not old - and work fine for regular cooking. What >causes this in the bread machine? Has anyone else had this problem? > >Thanks for any help! > >Jeanne Hi there, First of all, thank you to all of you working hard to make this list possible, great job. Always looking forward to reading them. Yeah, while reading what Jeanne had to say, I decide to make an Onion Bread for supper and it turned out delicious and aromatic and my children loved it and had more than my husband or I. To flavor the dough, I made my own fried shallots and use from 1 TB or more to get you the taste you love. The bread does smell great. BTW, the fried shallots can be done in a microwave oven too, just watch for very light golden color as it will continue cooking once you take it out & stirring it. Time varies on amount. Hope some of you will give it a try. Happy baking ... Christine ************************************************************************ ************************************************************************ * Frank and Christine Laberge * * Aylmer, P.Q. Canada * * flaberge@magi.com * * http://infoweb.magi.com/~flaberge * ************************************************************************ ************************************************************************ * I am Pentium of Borg. Division is futile. You will be approximated.* ************************************************************************ *************************************copied without permission********** ************************************************************************ ************************************************************************ ------------------------------ From: Blanche007@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 23:12:39 -0500 Subject: Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #61 Thanks to everyone who sent their snail mail address for a sample of my new sour dough product. the response was staggering (took me 2 hours just to down load the addresses). Please be patient - I'm packing up smaples and will try to get them out early next week. Thanks and love - I am literally overwhelmed by the generosity and support out there. lora ------------------------------ From: Cindy Bombassei & Robert Rauzi Date: Tue, 6 Feb 96 07:48 EST Subject: Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #65 > Finally, I'd like to hear more from folks who have used the bulk yeast >from King Arthur. Someone recently posted me a note saying that different >yeasts yield different flavors in the bread, and this seems reasonable based >on what I know about sourdough, for instance. I'd like to hear from folks >specifically about how the King Arthur yeast products perform and if they >yield any particular flavor? I want to purchase some of their stuff, but >don't know which one to get. I haven't tried the King Arthur yeast but I have been using Red Star Instant for about 8 months now. I get it at Sam's Club, 2 one pound packages for about $3.50. It is exellent. I has a very strong yeasty smell during baking that I just love. I have tried SAFF instant yeast and found it to be expensive and no better than anything else I've tried. All in all I think REd Star is the best for flavor and the price can't be beat. It comes in a vacum padked foil so it is fresh. I open one and freeze the other until I need it. It has held up just fine. Cindy > ------------------------------ From: janetm@online1.magnus1.com Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 11:04:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Why use a bread machine? Ron asked the following: > a time. My question is, where is the advantage in using a bread machine? I can, of course, only speak for myslef here, but I started baking bread with my grandmother when i was 6 years and there is no denying the fact that the contact with the dough that you have when making it the traditional way is something magical. However, the past few years I have suffered from carpal tunnel and fibromyalgia and just can't make bread that way anymore. The bread machine gives me the choice between the horrible store-bought breads and fresh, hot breads in the same infinate variety I used to make. There's also the plus of waking up to a pipping hot loaf of cinnamon raisin bread ready to eat for breakfast and being able to come home to a just done loaf of herb bread for dinner. Cheers, Janet +-----------------------------@--------------------------------+ | Janet Morrissey @ With the bread eaten up, | | "Mostly Harmless" @ up breaks the company. | | janetm@online1.magnus1.com @ -- Miguel de Cervantes | +-----------------------------@--------------------------------+ ------------------------------ From: gjones1@mmm.com Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 18:01:01 -0600 Subject: Rolls & Gluten Hi everyone, I have been lurking on the list for a few weeks and I have decided to come out and ask a questions. I received a Black & Decker ABM for Christmas and I really enjoy it but I have a couple of questions I would really appreciated being answered. 1) When I made rolls using the dough setting I was happy with the results but I would like the rolls a little lighter. How can I control that? I used 3/4 white bread flour and 1/4 WW. 2) The first loaf I made was 100% whole wheat. Although I enjoyed the taste, the loaf was a little too compact and dense for my liking. From what I had read from the list I believe that the addition of gluten would help this situation. Am I correct? I asked the Flour Mill if they had gluten and they gave me gluten flour...what's that?? How do I use that? Thank you very much for the informative information. Graham gjones1@mmm.com ------------------------------ From: Crystalle Haynes Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 13:40:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Lebanese bread recipe Kartini wanted a Lebanese bread recipe. This was sent to me recently; I have not tried it. Khubz ~~~~~ 1 package or cake of yeast 1 tablespoon of sugar 6 cups flour 2 teaspoons salt 2 cups lukewarm water 1/3 cup milk dissolve yeast and sugar in 1/2 cup warm water. let stand 5-10 mins. place flour and salt in large bowl making a depression in the center.Combine milk, remaining water and dissolved yeast;pour into depression. Begin mixingflour with liquid making sure all batter on sides of bowl is worked into dough. Knead until a smooth dough results and the sides of the bowl is clean. (hands are occasionally dipped into more water while kneading dough to give a smooth, elastic finish) Cover with towel and let rise in a warm place until it doubles in size (2-4 hours). Grab orange size balls from the edge of dough and smooth balls. Cover and let rise again on cloth for 30 mins. form into 1/4" thick circles. cover and let rise again on cloth for 30 mins. Heat oven to 475degrees f. Place dough directly on racks in oven. As soon as the dough rises into a mound, 2-5 minutes, place under broiler for a few second until lightly browned. cool. this freezes well. Yeilds 7-9 loaves. NOTE: many elegant recipes are made with this recipe. PS, the name of this bread is Khubz (Arabi Crystalle & the Kanga-Man crystall@po.eecs.berkeley.edu Berkeley, California (USA) ------------------------------ From: "Natalie Frankel" Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 21:39:21 -0600 (CST) Subject: 7 or 9 Grain Whole Wheat Bread I'm new to this list and enjoying it very much! Here's a favorite bread machine recipe which comes out relatively light for a whole grain bread. I think that mixing the flours together is what makes it light. This comes originally from the Fatfree mailing list archives. 7 or 9 GRAIN WHOLE WHEAT BREAD 1 1/8 cup Water (very warm) 1 1/2 TB Fruit juice or concentrate (warmed slightly) or applesauce 3 TB Honey 1/2 tsp Salt 3 TB Vital Gluten } 3/4 cup 4/7/or 9 Grain Cereal } mixed together 2 1/4 cups Whole Wheat Flour } 1 TB Flax seeds (optional) } 2 tsp Yeast Put into bread machine in this order or according to your machine. Bake on 1 1/2 lb loaf cycle. Sometimes I make it into sandwich rolls. I make it on the dough cycle then shape it into 10 balls. Place in a 9" round pan (lightly sprayed with Pam) and let rise an hour covered with a cotton cloth. Bake at 350 degrees for 35 minutes. Remove from pan right away and cool on cooling rack. means the recipe is tested (and recommended) Thanks for a great list, Reggie! Natalie Frankel Milwaukee, WI ------------------------------ From: haldas@nettally.com (Haldas, Gene) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 22:48:36 -0500 Subject: Measuring cups There has been a lot of discussion about measuring flour, and it seemed to conclude that weighing the flour is most accurate. I have several measuring cups made of glass, plastic and metal. I found that that they are all different. Using water, I discovered that glass cups were not the same as the plastic ones in fact even the markings on the pyrex cups were not the same. The difference was small but if someone is a stickler for accuracy you cannot rely on what's available at Wal-Mart or your local store. ------------------------------ From: BrawnyBear@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 12:55:49 -0500 Subject: Re: Conventional breads In a message dated 96-02-08 00:31:00 EST, DeniseR860 writes: << I like to let my breads rise in a cool oven with the oven light on. I do the same thing and put a pan of hot tap water under the rack. << I also will often place the bread in a plastic container with a lid that is securely fastened. When it "burps" itself open I know it is ready to be punched down and shaped! >> Now that is a good idea. I have a bread bowl that I got from Finland, I think. It has straight sides which is important for the bread to "climb" up when raising. I used to use a big bowl with sloped sides and the straight side bowl works so much better. ------------------------------ From: DeniseR860@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 00:30:55 -0500 Subject: Conventional breads To BrawnyBear@aol. com and others who bake bread conventionally. . . you are not alone! There are still some of us who make bread the "old fashioned way" and enjoy it still! I like to let my breads rise in a cool oven with the oven light on. It saves a bit of time on the rising on the days I need to hurry it a bit. I can peek in and see how things are going. I also will often place the bread in a plastic container with a lid that is securely fastened. When it "burps" itself open I know it is ready to be punched down and shaped! That is my tip for the day for what it is worth. DeniseR860@aol.com ------------------------------ From: "Miles, John W. (3672)" Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 10:45:10 -0800 Subject: bread-bakers-digest V6 #66 In reply to "BrawnyBear@aol.com" in v6 #65, yes there are some of us who still make bread by hand. Some of us are so stubbornly old fashioned that we don't even use commercial yeast (of course, my bread making routine takes 48 hours to complete). Regards, John. ------------------------------ End of bread-bakers-digest V6 #68 ********************************* bread-bakers-digest Monday, 12 February 1996 Volume 06 : Number 069 Today's Subjects: Re: Bread using sponge Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #64 Bread bread digest response Yeast, flour, and the Cuisinart Assiago Cheese Bread? rec.food.sourdough FAQ REQ: Bread Book Recommendation flour/liquid ratios many thanks Where to buy BM Flour? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dhougen Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 10:46:10 -0800 Subject: Re: Bread using sponge Have been using a receipe I got from Fine Cooking a year or so ago, that requires a sponge, maturing in about 8-10 hours. Then, bread dough mixed and allowed to rise slowly--overnight. I love the result and tolerate the method. Anyone else using this? Or, does anyone do anything with sponges. Thanks. ------------------------------ From: jfreeman@trumpet.aix.calpoly.edu Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 10:45:08 -0800 Subject: Re: bread-bakers-digest V6 #64 Re: a good Cuisinart bread recipe Since I never measure anything, this may require some experimentation, but as another poster said, just go for it . . . bread is very forgiving. Put about 3 cups of flour in the bowl of the Cuisinart, add about 2 T of sugar, 1 1/2 t. of salt, and (over the sugar, not the salt) sprinkle about 1 small coffee scoop of yeast (probably about 2 T). If you use no oil or want a fat-free loaf, close the Cuisinart lid at this point. If you'd like a loaf that will last a little longer, add about a T of oil. Then close the lid and have about 1 1/2 cups of water handy in a measuring cup or a vessel with a good thin pouring spout. Start the Cuisinart and slowly add in the water in a thin stream until the dough forms a ball and starts to slam around the bowl. If it is too thin, the dough will work up under the shaft (I always use the steel blade and NOT the plastic one), so watch what is going on inside. Also, do not use warm water, since working the bread in the machine will warm up the whole dough and you can kill the yeast if it gets too hot. If you start getting the dough too wet, stop and add another T or two of flour and then start the machine again. Anyway, after you have a rather soft, but not sticky dough running around the machine, let the machine run for about 30 or 40 seconds. Feel of the bowl with your hand to be sure that it is not too hot in there. Then just turn off the machine and wait until the dough rises up to the top of the bowl. Turn out and form into a loaf and put in a greased loaf pan or finish a little more with your hand kneading and then put into any shape you want (even bagels or baguettes). Bake and enjoy. About 400 degrees until golden brown. I always cool on a rack so that it doesn't sweat. I got a similar version of this recipe at my Cuisinart class and use nothing else for my white breads. I use my Kitchen Aid for my ryes and pumpernickels, since they need to be much wetter to rise well when I make HJF in SLO (Jo Anne) ------------------------------ From: frank.pizzelanti@citicorp.com Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 10:46:11 -0800 Subject: Bread Does anyone know of a good(meaning cheap & reasonable) source of flours & supplies? I 've tried King Arthur, still waiting 4 weeks for their catalog...and their prices for gluten ( which leads to my next question ) were terribly high based on discussions in this newsletter and other sites. I am also looking to make something along the lines of "WONDER BREAD" - something light and airy. Thanks. ------------------------------ From: LoisCon@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 14:20:06 -0500 Subject: bread digest response Matt, I made a typing error when I answered your question...you wanted a lighter whole wheat bread. I gave you several suggestions and then told you to add more whole wheat flour..should have said more bread flour. Re my note to KKoluch about freezing flour..it's OK to freeze flour indefinitely but the dough can only be frozen about a month. Angela Fox wanted a baseline for bread machine recipes...here is one. 1 lb 1 1/2 lb Liquid 3/4 - 7/8 C 1 1/8 - 1 1/4 C Flour 2 C 3 C Salt 1 tsp 1 1/2 tsp Sugar 1 T 1 1/2 T Yeast 1 - 1 1/2 tsp 1 1/2 tsp - 2 tsp FOR DOUGH RECIPES USE 1/8 cup less liquid in most cases Ellen O'Leary ask how to get good crusts on her country loaves. Ellen, we love our La Cloche. We have a round one, and one shaped like a baguette. We use it to make our French Bread Extraordinaire from our second book, The Bread Machine Magic Book of Helpful Hints (extra risings in the machine make this a really flavorful bread)..The bread is so crisp it "crackles". You can find La Cloche at Williams Sonoma. Linda and I have an unusual method of using LaCloche and we do give instructions for use in this second book, (revised edition). Write if you need more help to: LoisCon@AOL.com ------------------------------ From: "Jack W. McKee" Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 18:16:08 -0500 Subject: Yeast, flour, and the Cuisinart Hello. New to the list, and thrilled. It's great to see so many people all over who are taking a stand for the good things bread-baking brings to your life. After browsing the list for a couple weeks, I find I have a few comments on various questions. 1. Yeast: After years of being a Fleishmann's guy (I live in CIncnnati, where the company was founded and therefore I was being a tad parochial), I have switched this year. I found that Hodgson Mill, the flour folks, were making packaged dry yeast. I tried it, and was very pleased with the results; it was a quicker rise, without sacrificing texture and also without giving the bread an undue "yeasty" flavor. I became a convert; keep it in the fridge. 2. Flour: I think a lot of cookbooks specify "all-purpose" flour because they may not know any better . I've always used unbleached, except for a couple of recipes from cookbooks I trust that specify all-purpose. Again, I like Hodgson Mill. Does anybody prefer King Arthur or any of the others? I'd be interested in your thoughts..... 3. Nancy asked about "food processor bread recipes." My wife gave me a Cuisinart for Christmas 1994, and I am probably the only person in the world (certainly among *our* friends) who wanted one specifically for the dough blade, rather than the cutting blade. It was a revelation. I learned to use the food processor with Julia Child's French bread recipe in "The Way To Cook." That recipe is designed specifically with the food processor method in mind. AFter I'd made that four or five times successfully, I began to branch out and adopt other recipes to the food processor method. THe key is to get the *technique* down; once you've done that, you don't *need* special recipes. I strongly recommend trying Child's method and then trying to adapt others on your own. I've even done sweet, eggy breads such as "Elizabeth Chowning's Divine Bread" from Camille Glenn's "Heritage of Southern Cooking: -- a truly heavenly loaf, rich with eggs and studded wtih chopped glazed apricots. Herewith, a few pointers for using the Cuisinart. Put your dry ingredients in; be aware of your processor's capacity, so you'll know if you have to make the dough in batches. (My machine has a capacity of 4 cups flour for regular bread, 3 cups for egg or sweet breads; Nancy said her's has an 8 cup capacity......). With the machine running (dough blade, not steel unless the recipe specifically calls for it), add the liquid ingredients in a thin stream until the dough holds together and forms a ball on top of the blade. Let it make ten revolutions, then stop the machine. Feel the dough; if it's still too sticky, add a tablespoon or so of flour and let it revolve a bit more. If it doesn't ball, add water (or milk or whatever....) a tablespoon at a time until it does. Let it rest and cool off; you don't want to kill the yeast, and you want the flour to absorb the liquids. Turn it back on and let it go 'round about 30 times. Stop, turn the dough out on the floured surface. If you made it in batches, combine and knead a few times, including a couple of turns this way: Flatten it out into a long rectangle, then fold it in thirds from each end (like folding a letter); this ensures even distribution of the yeast. Do a final hand kneading and proceed.... 4. BOoks: I like "The Italian Baker" by Carol Field and "English Bread & Yeast Cookery." Other than that, I don't have many exclusively-bread books, but lots of my cookbooks have wonderful bread sections (Ms. Glenn's book above most notably). This list is *so much fun!* Glad I found it..... Jack McKee Cincinnati, OH ------------------------------ From: Betty Kuenzel Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 14:53:35 -0600 (CST) Subject: Assiago Cheese Bread? Hi, bread bakers! Thanks for all your helpful recipes and tips. Got a question for you: Here in Missouri there is a chain deli/bakery called "St. Louis Bread Company". They make a bread which I love called "Assiago Cheese Bread". It's crusty on the outside, white and creamy on the inside - there may be cheese in the inside of the bread, there's definitely cheese on the crust, at least on the top of the crust - and you get a great kind of salty tang on your tongue. Anyway, I love it, and was wondering if anyone has any ideas for a recipe for this bread. Also, I just bought a package of the CT-1 Dough Enhancer from Delta Rehab (Irwin) and haven't tried it yet, but am wondering if it's appropriate to also use gluten with the enhancer or is that overkill? Has anyone used lecithin granules as a dough enhancer? If so, with what results? I haven't made too many loaves in my machine to just rave about, so I'm hoping to start meeting with more success. Thanks for your ideas! Betty K. (bkuenzel@mail.coin.missouri.edu) ------------------------------ From: Darrell_Greenwood@mindlink.net (Darrell Greenwood) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 09:47:09 -0800 Subject: rec.food.sourdough FAQ I just compiled a FAQ for rec.food.sourdough. It was posted yesterday to rec.food.sourdough if you have access to Usenet newsgroups. A hyperlinked copy is obtainable at URL:. The FAQ contains interesting and knowledgeable answers from the last year or so of r.f.s. Subject: 2. Table of Contents 1. Introduction and Where are the FAQs? 2. Table of Contents 3. What is the protein or gluten content of various flours? 4. What are some books on bread? 5. What is gluten and how does kneading develop it? 6. What is the difference between wild and commercial yeast? 7. Can I make bread without salt? 8. How do I stop my sourdough bread from flattening? 9. Can I use chlorinated water with my starter? 99. Authors Cheers, Darrell - -- Darrell Greenwood, Vancouver, BC darrell_greenwood@mindlink.net My web homepage... http://mindlink.net/darrell_greenwood/ ------------------------------ From: David Barnett Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 19:20:24 +0200 (EET) Subject: REQ: Bread Book Recommendation I need help! When I lived in the States I only baked bread on Friday's (Challah), and on rare occasions, so I never worried about having a large collection of recipes. Now that I am living in Israel, and I have more time on my hands than I used to, I find myself hunting down every good bread recipe I can find. Although I've enjoyed the digest, all of the recipes listed are for bread machines (nothing I will have until I move back to the States). I would like a recommendation for a bread book. Not the kind with the new, fancy, yuppie recipes in them, but the kind of recipes that my grandmother would have been baking in the '50s. All I'm really concerned with is the fact that the recipes are for hand made bread, and are "tried and true." Thanks in advance for any suggestions! Ariella Jopling Haifa, Israel davidb@tx.technion.ac.il ------------------------------ From: Angela Fox Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 17:27:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: flour/liquid ratios First of all I would like to thank all the people who have been so generous to share their knowledge of flour hydration and to answer my many questions. I am still on a personal quest to experience myself what is optimum flour hydration. What I am finding is: 1. All flours are different including differences between same types of flours but different brands. 2. There are no recipes that do not need adjustments in liquid or flour amounts. This made so much more sense after I did some simple tests (below). 3. Weighing flour really tells you very little. It does not tell you how much of the content is moisture. I suppose if you set a base line for your own flours in your own house at varying times of the year it may mean something to you personally, but all flours weigh differently - even whole wheat flours depending on where they come from. 4. Flours with higher gluten content weigh more than lower gluten flours. 5. High gluten flours need more liquid. 6. Protein content does not tell you the gluten content Here is a novice scientist's experiment but helpful experiment that I did. I took all the flours that I had in my house and measured out 1 Tablespoon of each flour after weighing a complete cup of the flour. I put each type in its own small container (empty margarine tubs) and added 2 teaspoons of water mixing only to blend the water into the flour. What I found out was very eye opening! I am listing the results in the order that I feel are the wettest samples to the dryest samples. 1 Tablespoon flour mixed with 2 teaspons water: 1. Arrowhead Mills organic all purpose flour, 4 1/4 ounces per cup - very hydrated and spreadable- liquidy - viscous (words to describe this are hard to come up with) 2. King Arthur All purpose flour, 4 1/4 ounces per cup, a little firmer than the Arrowhead Mills above 3. King Arthur Special for machines bread flour, 4 1/2 ounces per cup. This flour was very interesting. It had the consistency of egg white - jelly like compared to all the other samples. A small amount between index finger and thumb when separated forms long stretchy strands (comparatively). Mixture was nicely hydrated comparatively. Perhaps this is the highest gluten content flour of all I tested here? 4. King Arthur 100% White Whole Wheat Flour. Not jelly-like as the special machine flour, maybe a little firmer than above. 5. Arrowhead Mills Organic Hard whole wheat flour. Slow to abosorb moisture and maybe not much firmer than the white whole wheat. Very bitter tasting by the way! Maybe old????? 4 3/4 ounces per cup. 6. Local Bakery Ground hard red winter wheat, not as bitter tasting as above, and probably not much firmer. 4 3/4 ounces per cup. 7. My own freshly ground whole wheat flour using a Vita-Mixer 4 3/4 ounces per cup. This sample was incredibly dryer than all the rest (weight the same as the other red whole wheat flours however). In fact it almost did not completely mix up as compared to everything else. This flour was like a sponge! I am wondering if the Vita-Mixer in the process of grinding the wheat berries heats the flour to such a high temperature (you can barely touch the flour it is so hot) that it dries it out???? If so is this affecting the flour in any other way - like vitamins, taste, shelf life (which I know is short anyway). In any event my favorite breads have been made with this flour because of the very sweet tasting non-bitter finely ground whole wheat alternative. I do grind the flour until it is very fine (2 cups of grain for about 5 minutes). Could I be getting something better with another type of grain mill? Perhaps it is not drying out at all but this particular grain has a very high gluten content compared to the grains used for the other whole wheat flours which would cause mine to be more absorbent. However, the amounts of extra liquid I need to make a satisfactory dough are so out of line from all the recipes that I use that it seems like it is probably not a high gluten thing but rather a *dry* flour thing? I am going to go to the lhfs where I purchased the wheat berries to try to get more detailed information. Is there anyone on this list that has a Vita-Mixer and uses it to grind flour? If so please write! Do all grain mills get the grain extremely hot in the process of grinding? If not, is this something that is bad for the flour? I really learned a lot from these experiments. I let the little blobs sit a few hours. I kept coming back and examining them over time. The interesting thing and learning process was dabbing a small amount between index finger and thumb and pulling the mixture apart. The differences between all the different flours is so amazing. All along, I thought the differences in flours were minor except their weights and flavors and perhaps how much liquid they would require to make a satifactory dough. I didn't realize their consistency and texture would be so dramatically different as well as how absorbent they are. Donna German in her cookbook on whole grains mentions the many differences in flour that has been freshly ground versus others taking into account their gluten content and the resulting amounts of liquid needed. She does not give much detail however - just mentions it - but this is the first place I have read information on this particular topic. In my great study of bread machine cookbooks, not one really talks about what to do if you replace whole wheat flour for white bread flour. I have read that you need more whole wheat flour if you are replacing it for white bread flour - - which is completely the opposite of what I have found. I have read that all purpose flour does not hold as much liquid - which is really true here. You get loads of info on how to condition the flour/dough if replacing it, but not to what extent you will have to play with the liquid. Of course all the cookbooks talk about how to judge the dough and add liquid/flour if necessary to make a satisfactory dough. No wonder I felt like I was adding way too much water (when trying to follow a recipe) to my own freshly ground whole wheat flour - it needs much more. I have had to add as much as 1/4 cup extra water per 3 cups of flour recipe that started with 1 1/8 cups of water. Now, I wonder how the weather will affect the above trials if repeated in the Spring, Summer, and Fall? It has been rainy and humid here this week and much warmer - which I felt would make my flour moister! (if it got much drier - ?????). Thanks for listening! Any comments would be greatly appreciated! Angie ------------------------------ From: Angela Fox Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 22:04:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: many thanks I recently received a new Zoji and want to share my enthusiasm for it. I am so impressed with the machine for many reasons. First of all it is so quiet even kneading a very stiff whole wheat dough. I can't hear it unless I am right near the machine. My other machines sounded like they were building a house kneading the same type of dough. I also think it does and incredible job at kneading the dough effectively. I love the programmable feature and use it often as I am tailoring a recipe or having to start the kneading over to add more of something - like forgeting to add the dried fruit. The machine bakes a beautiful loaf! Many thanks to Irwin Franzel who makes the machine available at such a great price and includes expert advice and help whenever needed. He is also very patient with novices like me. I have learned so much from him in the few times I have spoken with him. I start with one question and end up with a lot of valuable information and help. I would also like to thank Lois Conway for her valuable help with answers to my many questions. Her book is the number one resource for me in my bread machine baking - The Bread Machine Magic Book of Helpful Hints. The Honey French Bread recipe that was posted here and also appears in Donna German's first book is wonderful! I must say I used the recipe and then followed BM Magic's information for baking French Bread in the oven. The bread has been the favorite in my house of all the breads I have baked (I'm the whole grain fan - they are the white bread eaters). But I must admit that it rivals my favorite whole grain Swedish Rye and Cranberry Orange loaves. Did anyone else experience living on bread alone when they first got into bread baking? How do you get over that? I keep trying to eat a balanced diet, but right now my diet is missing the top 2/3 of the food pyramid! Help! It is because I want to try all the things I am learning how to do and then I am not hungry for anything else!!! I do give away a lot of bread, and have frozen a little! What are some favorite pizza dough recipes?? Thanks!!!!! Angie ------------------------------ From: bhaug@pclink.com (Bruce S. Haug) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 20:44:01 -0800 Subject: Where to buy BM Flour? I'm new to BM baking and would like to know where to buy Flour (for Bread Machines) in a larger quantity then 5 lb. (In St. Paul MN). I have sent (called) for a King Arthur catalog. ============================================================================= Bruce S. Haug Carve, Whittle, Saw, or Slice Woodcarver Etc. Its still to short bhaug@pclink.com and I have cut it off TWICE St. Paul Minnesota ------------------------------ End of bread-bakers-digest V6 #69 *********************************