Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 04:02:04 -0700 (PDT)
-------------- BEGIN bread-bakers.v101.n037 --------------
001 - Paul and Ruth Provance
- Re: bread rising too much in machine
010 - Susan Barron
Subject: Bread in the BBQ
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 09:19:06 -0400
Dear Sue H.
I have baked bread in the Webber Kettle grill, but it was a long time
ago. As I recall, I made a regular rye bread in loaf pans and baked it
over indirect heat -- that is, I banked the coals on each side of the
grill, leaving a space in the center with no coals. After the bread was
ready, I put the two loaf pans side-by-side over the area with no coals,
covered the grill, and went away. After a while, I probably rotated the
loaves so that the sides away from the coals now faced the coals and I
got more even baking.
I think that a kettle grill set up this way probably has a temperature
of about 350 degrees F., as chicken and stuff cooks in about the same
length of time as in an oven at that temp.
As I recall (and this may have been 20 years ago!), the bread turned out
fine, and one of the neighbors remarked on the aroma! I haven't tried
it since, which is a pity, since we now have two Webber Kettles!
Try it, you may like it!
Keep baking bread!
Ruth
--------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n037.2 ---------------
From: "Phil and Amy Will"
Subject: grain mill attachment for the KA mixer
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:00:14 -0400
Hi!
Does anyone have any experience with the grain mill attachment for the KA
mixer? I would love to grind my own flour, and would prefer to get this
attachment rather than purchase a separate appliance - but only if it's
worth it. Will I be able to grind a soft wheat berry fine enough so that
it's like pastry flour? I would love to hear any information you have on
it's use - any pros or cons or helpful hints. Also, does anyone know where
I can get a good price on one?
Thanks for your help!
(I have learned so much from this list!)
Amy
--------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n037.3 ---------------
From: "linda grande"
Subject: the ultimate sandwich bread
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 18:19:33 +0000
I got the following recipe through a friend on another list.
It turned out to be just about the best loaf of bread I've ever made.
I've been searching for years for a flavorful, light and fluffy, yet
substantial loaf, and this is it! I made the dough in my bread machine,
then baked it off in my oven because I prefer a regular loaf shape and the
softer crust that comes out of my conventional oven.
I hope you'll try the recipe, I guarantee you'll love it!
Ultimate Sandwich Bread
=======================
1 Cup Water
2 Tbsps Oil
1 3/4 Cups Bread Flour
1 Cup Whole Wheat Flour
1/3 Cup Rye Flour
2 Tbsps vital wheat gluten
3 Tbsps Sugar
1 tsp Salt
2 tsps Yeast
Place all ingredients in your bread machines in the order specified by the
manufacturer. Select 'basic' or 'white' cycle.
(I baked this at 375 F for 35 minutes.)
--------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n037.4 ---------------
From: Jeff Dwork
Subject: Bread machine temperatures and pan thicknesses
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 01:34:05 -0700
Some issues have been raised by a recent post in bread-bakers that reported
on temperature measurements and pan thicknesses for several bread machines.
In a bread machine, the heating element transfers heat to the pan by
heating the air outside the pan. Air convection in the space between the
pan and the surrounding wall distributes the hot air around the pan. The
air heats the pan, which heats the dough inside the pan. The heating of
the dough occurs by conduction from the pan to the wet dough directly
contacting the pan.
If the pan is empty and the temperature probe is inside the pan and not in
contact with it, the transfer of heat to the probe depends on convection
currents in the air inside the pan. Convection occurs when a liquid or gas
is heated in one place and cooled in another, like water heating in a pan,
or the air outside the pan in contact with the heating element and the top
cover of the machine. The larger the temperature difference, the stronger
the convective flow. But inside the pan, the heat is spread out by the pan
and the temperature of the pan is much lower than the temperature of the
heating element, so the convection currents will be weak. Any cold air
leak through the lid seal, especially where the probe wires exit, will cool
the air inside the pan much more than the air outside.
When bread is baked in a pan, whether in an oven or a bread machine, the
pan is quite thin. The dough contains water, some of which remains when
the bread is fully baked. The temperature of the bread cannot exceed the
boiling point of water; the final temperature of properly baked bread is 30
degrees F or more below boiling. The pan conducts heat well, so the
outside of the pan is close to the temperature of the surface of the baking
bread. The air in the oven is hotter by 200 degrees F or more. Heat
transfers from the air to the pan and onward to the bread. The air cools
and circulates down to the heating element to be heated again.
A thick baking pan has no advantage over a thin pan. A thick pan will take
longer to heat because the hot air must heat more metal. This will result
in the top of the dough which is exposed to the air baking faster than the
bottom. Frying pans are very different. The temperature difference across
the bottom of a frying pan from where it is in contact with the flame to
places where it is not is very large - many hundreds of degrees F. A thick
pan conducts significantly from side to side, smoothing the temperature
distribution on the cooking surface. I suspect that the thickness of bread
machine pans is determined by the mechanical requirements of the kneading
process and not by thermal considerations.
A bread machine is a very small oven. The distance between the pan and the
wall is very much smaller than the distance from side to side or top to
bottom. There is significant heat loss through the walls of the bread
machine and out the lid and top seal. These areas are close to the pan and
to the exposed top of the bread. All this is very different from a
conventional oven which is a closer to a large cube with the bread far from
the walls and door.
In my experience with several different bread machines, there are
significant differences between them. Clearly some are from the mixing,
kneading and rising as can easily be seen by observing the dough. Likely
the baking adds more differences. Differences in dimensions, lid design
and insulation are certain to cause differences in the air temperature
distribution around the pan from one machine to another. Even though two
machines are both at the same temperature (as measured in a similar way in
both machines), I suspect (but have no proof) that the bread will bake
differently. I believe that temperature settings on bread machines are
useful as relative indications only, so the actual numbers are not very
important.
Jeff
--------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n037.5 ---------------
From: Reggie Dwork
Subject: refrigerated dough
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 01:44:07 -0700
How long can you keep kneaded dough in the refrigerator before you have to
throw it out? This isn't sourdough (or at least it didn't start out that way).
Reggie & Jeff
--------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n037.6 ---------------
From: NSimZim@aol.com
Subject: Pizza on the grill
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 13:37:30 EDT
Recently, Sue asked about pizza on the grill. There are many different
schools of thought about how to grill a pizza, but we make grilled pizza at
least once a week and have tried all sorts of temperatures, grills and
distances from the fire. First, we like the Weber charcoal kettle grill as
opposed to a smoker or a gas grill; the flavor is much stronger and the
temperature gets hot enough from beginning to end. Second, we place the
dough on aluminum foil (sprayed with olive oil). This works better than a
metal sheet on the grill and is easier to get a peel under it (I would like
to try a pizza stone as well). Third, we make the pizza up all at once
(don't cook the crust seperately) and put it on the fire HOT. This means
that as soon as the coals are dropped from the chimney into the kettle, the
first pizza goes on (I can get two large pizzas out of the coals, I've
never tried pushing it to three). Lastly, watch the bottom of the crust,
don't trust the top to brown the same!
--------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n037.7 ---------------
From: Reggie Dwork
Subject: England bread classes
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 23:55:56 -0700
I don't remember if I posted this already ... but here are some bread
baking classes in England.
http://www.village-bakery.com/courses/details.htm
Reggie
--------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n037.8 ---------------
From: Linda Rehberg
Subject: Re Pita Bread
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 03:53:41 -0700
Dick, re your pita breads that bake up unevenly......they need better
air circulation on both sides. Try baking them on a cake rack placed
directly on the oven rack rather than the solid baking stone. I think
you'll find that will solve the problem. They should be baked at 500
degrees for 4 - 5 minutes and then immediately placed in a paper sack
or covered with slightly damp dish towels until they cool. That will
keep them pliable. Hope that works for you!
Linda Rehberg
co-author of the BREAD MACHINE MAGIC series of books
--------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n037.9 ---------------
From: Sue
Subject: Re: bread rising too much in machine
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 12:14:24 -0400
I just realized that my recent replies to this list are being sent to
never-never land because the "from" field is an error trap, not a real
"from." Oh well.
So I've copied and and pasted them below.
>To Susan Barron who was having problems with her bread rising too much in
the bread machine. I have a Toastmaster and the pan in the model I have
(1155) is on the small side of 1.5 lb. I have some tips at my website that
might help you (though some of the information is dated- eg. it seems that
2 lb loaves are now more common than 1.5).
http://users.rcn.com/sue.interport//food/abmhints.html
>
>If you are using no more than 3 c flour then the overflowing is probably
due to too much liquid. Because of the small, closed container, the bread
machine retains moisture compared to baking in an open oven so the dough
should be drier (though still smooth). Also, some recipes just rise more
than others, in which case I back off a few tablespoons on the flour too,
then adjust the liquid. If you are using bread flour, extra gluten is not
needed.
>
>Good luck!
>
>I also have the Tupperware bread keeper and love it. Actually, I have two
of them. They are also great as cookie jars when not being used for bread.
>
Sue(tm)
Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself!
--------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n037.10 ---------------
From: Susan Barron
Subject: adobe oven
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 13:27:13 -0400
Deb in Virginia asked about the adobe oven I mentioned in a previous post.
The directions for the one we made are in an old cookbook published in
1974, the Sunset Italian Cook Book, written by the editors of Sunset Books
and Sunset Magazine, published by Lane Books, Menlo Park. I don't know if
it is still available or not.The materials are mud, bricks, cement, some
chicken wire and 1/2 of a cardboard drum & wood for the door. It's not
really complicated, but it did work well. It was wood fired. You simply
built the fire on the floor of the oven and when it had heated the oven
sufficiently the wood and ash was swept out of the oven and the bread put
in when it had cooled to the correct baking temp.
I have also read a very good book titled The Bread Builders by Daniel WIng
and Alan Scott It gives very detailed instructions for building masonry
ovens, and I know it is still available. The book also has great, useful
information about sourdough baking. Definitely worth looking into if you
are interested in wood fired brick ovens.
Hope this helps.
Susan
--------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n037.11 ---------------
From: "Fredericka Cohen"
Subject: KitchenAid
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 19:43:29 -0400
There have been so many negative comments about KitchenAid since it "left"
Hobart that I thought I would pass on a positive experience.
The finish on my 1978 K5 dough hook began to peel so I called Culinary
Parts. They sent me to KitchenAid because they were afraid that the new
parts would not fit.
First of all, KitchenAid does not charge shipping on anything. This a big
saving! Second, I ordered it via the web on Tuesday and it was in my
mailbox Friday. Third, they have re-shaped it so it does a better job. My
"never-fail Marcy Goldman challah" recipe was almost an inch higher!
By the way, someone recently asked about recipes for, I be;lieve, fresh
figs. If you can't find recipes or infprmation about any food, try
contacting the trade association for that item.
--------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n037.12 ---------------
From: "Tom Brown (EUS)"
Subject: Re: baking bread on grill
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 09:33:55 -0500
I have occasionally done this when camping - sourdough, english muffins,
sourdough cheese biscuits [ with a touch of garlic, of course].
biscuits can be cooked/griled/baked in a heavy fry pan or griddle; need to
adjust the height /or fire to control the heat.
baking bread requires a little more watchfulness. I usually use a cast
iron dutch oven [lined with aluminum foil - easy to remove, especially if
it accidentilly gets too hot on the bottom. You put some of the fire coals
around [and on top] of the durch oven ; sort of guess how much it takes. [
there are "formulas" of temperature and time if you use bricquets [ that
spelling doesn't look right - and I can't check on the bag as I don't use
them] . One time I used my foil lined cardboard 'solar oven' box as a
enclosure - and it worked very well. [of course it also caught fire one
time also!!
Any technique that is intended for barbeque [ slow, lower heat, as opposed
to grilling - fast, high heat] should work very well for baking. After
all, people were baking bread for thousandds of years before all our
'modern appliances'- and in many parts of the world they stilll do!
Tom brown, the crazy camp cook
--------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n037.13 ---------------
This message removed by editor.
--------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v101.n037.14 ---------------
From: Alexgejp@aol.com
Subject: Archives; new bread machine
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 10:13:21 EDT
To Reggie and Jeff - thanks to you and your predecessors for your combined
efforts in establishing and maintaining the bread digest archives. I have
begun reading the archives from the beginning in 1990 and am having SO much
fun.
I was amazed to learn that the List was begun for bread machine users, which
explains why many postings have been about bread machines. However, I must
say that this has in no way diminished my enjoyment in reading the digests
since I learned about it a couple of years ago.
My husband has been trying to talk me into a bread machine for several years
but since he had already bought me a KitchenAid mixer, I always refused. I
have finally agreed to a bread machine (Breadman Ultimate) and after four
loaves, it is fast becoming my most prized possession (a category formerly
held by my KitchenAid). My grandson was a little disappointed in me for
getting a machine and I explained it to him this way. When I was very young,
my Mother washed clothes by hand, then my Dad bought her a wringer washing
machine, which she thought was the greatest invention ever, until he bought
her an automatic washing machine so that all she had to do was put in the
clothes and soap and turn it on. Making bread is basically the same - first
I was making bread totally by hand, which was difficult when working with
stiff doughs, then my husband bought me a KitchenAid mixer, which I thought
was the greatest invention ever. Now with the purchase of a bread machine
all I have to do in put in the ingredients, mash a couple of buttons and turn
it on. Same analogy. PLUS the bread from the machine comes out just the
way we like it, even better than before. The crow that I have been eating
for the past couple of weeks has even tasted good. I wish I had done this a
long time ago.
So, I want to thank each and every subscriber who has written to the List who
had a hand in convincing me that a bread machine is a good thing. Now I just
hope my husband doesn't divorce me since my nose is always either on the
Internet in the Bread Digest Archives or in a bread machine cookbook.
Happy baking,
Joy Alexander
--------------- END bread-bakers.v101.n037 ---------------
Copyright (c) 1996-2001 Regina Dwork and Jeffrey Dwork
All Rights Reserved